Bad taste

chimeric

The encroachments of bad taste are numerous. In these games, especially in everything after BG1, IWD and Torment, I see so many things that make my tongue behave as if it tastes tan, that wonderful nomad beverage of sour milk, salt and, I think, armpits. But nothing is so bad as when I read about players' tactics and what they take for granted, how they behave, what they do with their wizards. AD&D, the spirit and the letter, hasn't just been buried - people are using its tombstone for a skate board. Somehow even Diablo is less crude than this, maybe because it had no real claims to being a role-playing game. It was dubbed "RPG," but everyone knew it was just action. And here?

Yes, these used to be treated as role-playing games... What a strange old phrase that is. Computer role-playing... and the hyphen... mysterious. What was that even supposed to mean? There must have been something. Back then, we took the... and put them in the... we tried to... Damn, I can't remember. It must have been in another century, another millennium, why, so it was. No, no, it's all about levels, kits and builds and the next attack spell Beamdog invents.

Dev6

I get a bad taste in my mouth when people spend more time whining online than playing the games they supposedly love.

O_Bruce

While on some level I can kinda understand what OP is saying, I seriously don't recommend getting too serious about videogames. In time one can realize they're not worth it, despite being enjoyable (and sometimes challenging) hobby.

Pantalion

To suggest that optimisation and roleplaying are mutually exclusive is a logical fallacy. It does not make someone better at roleplaying if they intentionally gimp themself with a Half-Orc no kit Thief with 6 Dex and all their skill points in Pickpocket.

Neverused

It's a single player game, so let people play them as they wish. Personally, I've played through roleplaying the series two or three times, and always recommend that a new player play with a party because the NPC interactions are so well written. We've also had our fair share of alignment threads, favorite NPC threads, and role playing threads.

However, now, I also enjoy the challenge of perfecting my play. Now while I generally play with a full team in BG2, it's also important that I understand the mechanics behind the strengths and weaknesses of each kit and class. And not having mastery of that, I can come to the forums and read what better players than I have figured out. I'll still enjoy discussions about NPCs' personalities, but those don't help me become a better player or a better role player. Discussions about mechanics, however, help at least one of those issues.

semiticgoddess

There is no right way or wrong way to play a game. I've never complained about how another player enjoys BG, and I've never seen any good come of people complaining about other people's behavior or preferences.

Games are about having fun. As long as you're having fun, you're doing it right.

deltago

It's a single player game, I will play the way I want to play and you can play the way you want to play. It doesn't effect either of our games.

The other thing that needs to be taken into consideration, is the difference between tabletop RPGs and computer RPGs.

In table top, a good DM will look at the characters the PCs made and craft an interesting campaign and story around them. The story can flow and change depending on the characters decisions and actions. So, with a good DM, those characters that aren't optimized can still be fun and impactful to play during a campaign that can be endless.

Its reverse in videogames. The story is already written and the player takes a character through that story. Once the story is told, and the player has knowledge of it, they will learn from their mistakes, play style and companions and create another character, probably better than the last.

With a game as old a Baldur's Gate, there is only so many times you can take a character through the game and have it feel fresh and new. Adding new kits, and therefore new tactics allow for a different experience for those players.

If those tactics and playstyles don't suit your needs, need not to fret, all the old ones are still there waiting to be played and enjoyed.

UnderstandMouseMagic

What I do with my wizards is nobodies business but my own.....

(ooops, ignore this comment. I think I may have missed the point)

[Deleted User]

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semiticgoddess

subtledoctor said:

murder simulator just like most other successful video games.

This seems like an exaggeration until you think about it.

lefreut

semiticgod said:

subtledoctor said:

murder simulator just like most other successful video games.

This seems like an exaggeration until you think about it.

In fact, it's very accurate, you play a Bhaalspawn and Bhaal is the Lord of Murder

chimeric

Pantalion said:

It does not make someone better at roleplaying if they intentionally gimp themself with a Half-Orc no kit Thief with 6 Dex and all their skill points in Pickpocket.

You are forgetting to mention what the intention was. If the character is this way because that's his personality and the player uses his imagination to tell the story, then that's the definition of role-playing. Or shall I give you the page number in the Player's Handbook where it talks about role-playing characters with modest stats?

deltago said:

Its reverse in videogames. The story is already written and the player takes a character through that story. Once the story is told, and the player has knowledge of it, they will learn from their mistakes, play style and companions and create another character, probably better than the last.

The idea of a mistake only makes sense if you are playing to "succeed." I have no idea what succeeding means in what you rightly pointed out is a single-player videogame, even less so than in a pen-and-paper game. Nobody wants to be killed by an ogre, but beyond that... @O_Bruce says games aren't worth it; worth what? They are a creative outlet for designers and choose-your-own-adventure books, with pictures, for players. These AD&D adaptations aren't social, of course, and all they could reward players with would be confident storytelling that stayed away from cliches, more options for exploration, interaction and that thing called playing a role again, all of it supported by professional and restrained visual art and music that dared to take on conventions - on one end, and purely technical cleverness, tactics and smart AI - on the other. That's all there could be without an original concept... and it's not a bad list. subtledoctor may think what he likes about murder simulators, there has been more than a handful of games where designers have tried and done something special. They did it in different ways, but, to say nothing about these games here, there were the Fallouts, Morrowind, Knights of the Old Republic, Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines and a few others from the so-called "Golden Age" alone. Even Neverwinter Nights had some things going for it.

There is such a thing as real creativity, and it's different from monty hauling, fantasy rehashes and repeating bullshit.

Anduin

chimeric said:

Pantalion said:

There is such a thing as real creativity, and it's different from monty hauling, fantasy rehashes and repeating bullshit.

I've replayed this game so many times... I've lost count. Each time is different for me, even though I go for max power and play a gnome each time (I know some people frown on power gaming gnome users... But when you just gotta lay the magical smack down... It just has to be a gnome... Some people are under the illusion that this is actually a falsehood, but this again actually proves how powerful gnomes really are, they being the masters of illusion and such... However @Chimeric , I believe I may be preaching to the choir here. Perhaps... Controversially you should have a playthrough with one of the many other, more squishy races, such as an elf or human to make your playthrough more challenging...)

You may think I'm talking turnips @chimeric but there is no need to grind in these series.

If you are alluding to the fact that most RPGs are of a go fetch, find and return nature... You are correct, but then again, so are most things in life, such as shopping or visiting the restaurant or even nightclubbing. Only what your fetching and finding change. I sometimes go to the shops via a different route to avoid the nasty troll toll bridge... Sometimes I try and pick up three girls at the nightclub (But I have not got the experience or the levels to succeed at this point.)

Lastly, this is all opinion. I am sure that one day I will have such a positive opinion of myself and the opinions I share with others that I will indeed go to the nightclub and not only pick up three hearty and hefty girls, I will also pull four bristly men and a confused DJ, because my opinions are so amazing in their amazingness.

Please comment if you disagree.

batoor

I don't mind solo runs, power plays, no-reloads and so on as long as they don't start defining what Baldur's Gate should be like. As in influencing the game design of future games, that's a part I disagree on strongly. Just remember seeing some criticism of SoD, was the fact that some of the encounters weren't balanced enough for a solo character. Which doesn't sound right to me at all.

But I'm not sure I get the issue with it being a big part of the community discussion. Exactly what harm does that do? Though for the love of god, I can't understand what is so fun about min-maxing in TormentxD

Chronicler

Surely you've got better things to be doing then go around telling people they're playing videogames wrong.

TheArtisan

If we all had better things to be doing, none of us would be here

OlvynChuru

Personally I identify myself as a powergamer, and I am not embarrassed about it. Coming up with cool character builds for potential playthroughs is a lot of fun for me. It's like trying to solve a tough puzzle. The great number of classes, kits, items and spells opens up a lot of room for imagination and creativity. I am delighted whenever I stumble upon a new, interesting way to build a character. Even if some builds might be cheesy, the fun lies in discovering them.

The addition of kits, new items, extra spells, or other new ways to build a character, has greatly added to my enjoyment of RPGs such as the Enhanced Editions. I believe that such additions generally give more than they take away.

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The user and all related content has been deleted.

chimeric

@OlvynChuru , Having read what you did with your mod (amazing), I'm ready to agree with you that play with power can be exciting in itself. That's something else, though. You took the givens as a kind of construction set, you threw suspension of disbelief, time... endurance running checks... and the rest of reality out of the window, and you're just having a blast in total fantasy. It reminds me of... yes, Gravity Falls. That's a road leading to some other place, though, not to RPGs. We always make-believe against a resistance. If reality were to stay, one would have to measure up against relative suffering and insight, the new ideas that we get, all those things that come from where imagination draws on life one way or another. As soon as you descend to earth, so to speak, and start wanting something more or something else than this delirious fun, start counting fingers, you are going to have to acknowledge that these late-day additions end up taking away more than they give.

They are like bad candy in a bright wrapper. Nothing wrong with candy, nothing with bright, but if you can tear yourself away from the color, you expect the candy to taste good and not poison you, too.

Or like masturbation. Makes you blind.

@Anduin , Good luck with the girls. Errands in RPGs... Well, somehow I've always ignored them. I mean, I've never really considered those fetch and carry quests in their own right, as interesting or not. They are like mediocre art to me... an empty frame. If I felt bored in the sum total of the experience, I just uninstalled the game, otherwise I loved it, even with the errands. In games that I care about for other reasons I enjoy going around carrying packages, too. If they convince me, if the game world is original, serious and absorbing (Morrowind), if there is realistic, professional hand-drawn art, as on those old loading screens of BG1... all part of the whole... then I'm ready to dive in and swim. When I'm calculating tactics, I know that I'm anything but immersed - I'm just killing time.

Neverused

@chimeric But what about those of us that are far more immersed by calculating tactics? Not gonna lie, I can spend hours thinking of tactics and possible 6-man rosters in this game trying to maximize some idea or another. I've created at least 6 different Skald groups (one of which made it through ToB, finally!) and I've spent a lot of time making plans and whatnot because of the mechanics. I'm the exact opposite from you, I think: I'd play a beautifully crafted game maybe once, but if it doesn't make me think and plan, I'm not going to play it a second time. I've seen the story. But a game that gives me this many options that I can play with, a game that can make me scramble and play on my toes because my tactics didn't go as planned and I'm trying to survive a tactical nightmare by the seat of my pants? THAT'S a game that I'll play again and again. That's what interests me.

The remarkable thing is that Baldur's Gate has such a wide array of possible tactics while still having a good and varied story that it can appeal to both of us.

Wesboi

I've never played an rpg to be taken away to some mystical world to be led on an adventure. Theory crafting is where it's at for me. Couldn't care less about story or the way things should be.

Stories aren't for me.

deltago

Artemius_I said:

If we all had better things to be doing, none of us would be here

Actually, I am procrastinating at the moment.

Grond0

subtledoctor said:

When you step back and look at the last 40 years of games from a broad perspective, the degree to which killing has become the sole, central focus is disturbing. And also sad; similarly, the degree of variety that has been lost is pretty stunning.

I don't think things have particularly deteriorated. Killing is certainly central to one strand of games, but there are plenty of others - card and dice games, puzzles, strategy games, simulations, memory games, sports games etc.

I just had a look on amazon at PC games in the £20-£50 range where I might have expected killing to dominate. Out of the first 50 games listed with ratings of 4 stars or more 31 had absolutely no killing at all in - and in a number of others killing would be incidental to the type of game.

InKal

"When I'm calculating tactics, I know that I'm anything but immersed - I'm just killing time."

Really? When I admire BG1/2 amazing art, I'm immersed on esthethic (artistic) level. When I'm calculating tactics I'm immersed on intellectual (SIC!) level. Win/Win.

O_Bruce

@chimeric
There is noting unclear about my previous comment, but I'll explain and elaborate anyways: what's not worth it is not only getting upset over videogames, but also over how other people enjoy them - the truth is, you are not in position to judge how other people should enjoy them. I'm pretty sure it's also not your buisness. Your problem is one of "first world problems" and calling it even that is a stretch.

Now, something new:
I get that you might have high standards, but keep in mind that people are different and there are lot of factors that go into production of videogames - as result, many positions in that division of entertaiment will be made with high priority to sell well, due to how expensive videogames development and marketing can be. It's how the industry works right now and you can't do anything about it, exept of voting with your money.

Without any intent of ill will, perhaps some indie titles would be more to your tastes. You'll probably need a lot of research to see some hidden gem.

Lastly, you mention something about creativity, while complaining about roleplaying games today and how people play them. Sorry to burst your bubble, but playing videogames - even good cRPGs - is not very meaningful activity. It's easy to get into, it's enjoyable, it offers instant gratification. Yet you treat playing those as if they were some kind of art, when many things regarding games - like development, composing music, writing, making concept and in-game art - are much more maningful and difficult.

Just what are you trying to do?

chimeric

O_Bruce said:

There is noting unclear about my previous comment, but I'll explain and elaborate anyways: what's not worth it is not only getting upset over videogames, but also over how other people enjoy them - the truth is, you are not in position to judge how other people should enjoy them.

I don't care how they enjoy them, and for these people themselves. Any more than when you see a shambling drunk with a bottle in his pocket and a black eye, you are going to care about him. But aren't you going to think that this is low, disgraceful and disgusting "hobby," and that there are better things in life, and it shouldn't be done? Aren't you going to steer people you care about away from something like that? Or are you going to clap them on the back and buy them another? Or just stand in the middle like a Cosmic Scale of Balance and say "everyone to his own"? In what sense do you care about them, then? It's a hyperbolic example, granted, but the point is, there is any number of interests and pastimes that are objectively harmful or just demeaning for human potential, and they block it.

You don't want to judge? How about you try and DO judge stupid crap.

O_Bruce said:

Now, something new:
I get that you might have high standards, but keep in mind that people are different and there are lot of factors that go into production of videogames - as result, many positions in that division of entertaiment will be made with high priority to sell well, due to how expensive videogames development and marketing can be. It's how the industry works right now and you can't do anything about it, exept of voting with your money.

Without any intent of ill will, perhaps some indie titles would be more to your tastes. You'll probably need a lot of research to see some hidden gem.

If only. But one of the more popular illusions is that real creativity is away from where the money is. If only one steers from main-street AAA titles into little crooked alleys of indies, there will bloom all these beautiful talents and ideas that are only handicapped by small budgets... In truth, it's more of a self-serving, obscure nerddom. I looked at the Independent Games Festival website for this year a few days ago. There's nothing worth attention - just more garish colors, stylized forms (usually you get that when people can't draw), brainchild concepts. Because development on all sides takes resources - to attend art school, and to draw nudes for years, with a pencil, not a stylus... And it takes a musical education, a great erudition certainly, to develop as a composer. And a lot of reading to develop as a designer or writer. On and on.

O_Bruce said:

Lastly, you mention something about creativity, while complaining about roleplaying games today and how people play them. Sorry to burst your bubble, but playing videogames - even good cRPGs - is not very meaningful activity. It's easy to get into, it's enjoyable, it offers instant gratification. Yet you treat playing those as if they were some kind of art, when many things regarding games - like development, composing music, writing, making concept and in-game art - are much more maningful and difficult.

Just what are you trying to do?

What am I trying to do... I guess I'm trying to sell ice in Sahara, as an enticement to freaking up and leave for better climes.

ThacoBell

So what you're saying is, your taste is better than everyone eles's, simply because it differs, and we are simply stupid/stubborn to dare to not agree.

Dev6

The amount of self-righteousness this guy sprouts is ridiculous. I can honestly picture him foaming at the mouth while typing this. "How dare they play this game in ways that I never intended to. The heathens! The inferior, decadent, uninteligent heathens!"

Montresor_SP

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to play a single-player game. One of the wonders of the BG series is that it can be enjoyed in so many different ways.

You can define your own restrictions on how you wish to play - don't like cheese, don't use it! Don't like save-scumming, play no-reload. Etc.

To each their own.

O_Bruce

@chimeric
I happened to work in an addiction clinic and the example with the drunk you used is just plain retarded. There are other ways I could say it, but the one I used is the most appropriable. You have no single clue what are you talking about.

I agree that are some pasttimes that are obviously harmful and you are displaying a wonderful result of one of such pasttimes. With your overblown ego, entitlement (shown in other topic, you know exacly which one) and sense of superiority.

Your second paragraph is wrong on two levels. First of all, you don't understand basics about how marketing and business works. Second, you don't understand that stylized graphic doesn't mean that the artist can't draw. Quite the opposite - to stylize something well, one needs to understand reality. Artists such as Mark Crilley can draw something extremely stilized and cartoony, yet can draw extremely realistic as well. You aren't aware of that, or just willingly ignorant.

And you're also wrong about what you are trying to do. No, you're not trying to sell ice in Sahara. You're seeking attention. That's all there is to it.

I guess you lack even minimal ammount of eustress in your life. I hope that's going to change soon.

semiticgoddess

Let's not get personal, people. Personal attacks are against the Site Rules.