Oh, I suppose I wasn't clear I will check if it work fine (the spell table was bugged last time) and I am that kind of guy who's annoyed with buggy spells showing up. Was wondering if there is a line I can erase to make the spell icon disappear that would be fine too. Would be great if you could get me a hint if you have a minute or two
@subtledoctor - yeah, I've noticed that you made the bonus show permamently. I'm not a fan of that so I deleted the line responsible for that in the .spl. Now I'm wondering which GA_ in tp2 is the swarm...
So I did some tests (SoD 2.3, M&G 2.6.2), created a full party with M&G (no other mods, will add SoB and EE_NPC later) Found some small thinks:
Ranger/Mage -> can select longbows proficiency, but cannot use them ingame. Ranger Mage can choose 3 feats, which then show a list of spells that can be cast (some level 1-3 spells). Can only be done once, and they do not return after sleep. I think they are not intended right?
Corsair -> Can select Backstab bonus, but has no stealth (very minor)
Stalker -> Dart Trap always seems to fail (tested with level 6 should have Set Tarp:45, tried around 20 times. Should Set Trap show up in the character sheet?
Blade -> is working fine
Shadowdancer -> Starts with Grease Jar but not smoke bomb (the feat gives both as intended)
Alchemist -> Same as Shadowdancer missing smoke bomb. Hulking Transformation 0 attacks per round (cannot attack)
Hope that feedback helps. Will test more when I find the time.
Like what you did with the Alchemist very much. Cool kit. Just need some APR to HULK SMASH!
I think it comes from how these classes were developed over time. - Clerics are more like warrior priests and crusaders from there original background as far as I know. - Thief have no special combat training. Maybe they can use a knife well etc. Also Thief's are more versatile in P&P, were you can do a lot more things than in a combat based RPG (climbing and breaking in etc. was way more important than it is in Baldurs Gate). So it was more or less balanced from this point of view.
But in my opinion, Baldurs Gate is combat driven, so they should be more useful in combat. They also gave those classes the same progresses in 3rd edition, so I think you changes make sense.
I have a question about the kits that use the new "called shots"..
Is there any kind of cooldown between uses of called shots? Because if there isn't then it seems like those kits would be really overpowered.
Nope. I suppose I could do that. But the main limiting factor is not being able to move.
You can't move while shooting anyway so that's not really a penalty. And yeah, a cooldown would make a LOT of sense considering how mild the penalties are for Archers, Marksmen and Snipers. I would recommend at least three rounds between called shots if not longer.
Oooh I get it, its like that one mage power in WoW that literally freezes you until it completes..you can't run from anything. That's interesting and could certainly be a legitimate penalty..but TBH I'm not sure if it makes sense. Is this just a side effect of the called shot game mechanic or did you actually intend this to be a downside? In the latter case I think it would make more sense to just have called shots work like spells, i.e. you just have to remain motionless for a 5-6 seconds (aiming, readying trick arrow or whatever) before it goes off. Moving too soon wastes the called shot. If you could make them work that way, then combined with the cooldown it would be more balanced AND a bit more believable. 5 rounds between called shots sounds about right. Thats still a special ability every 30 seconds or so which is probably more than any other class (unless you're somehow a perma-invisible backstabber).
I also got to thinking about the called shots themselves. It seems odd that the Marksman would have the Blinding or Tangling shots since those have almost got to be alchemy or some kind of gadget (I'm thinking of the Thief games and the like). Stunning Shots could be explained by blunt arrows - this is actually used in Pillars of Eternity. Would it be possible to limit Blinding Shot and Tangling Shot to Marksmen who multi or dual-class rogues? Or maybe those two abilities should be limited to Snipers since their the rogue bow specialists. I also doubt a single-class Archer would have Blinding Shot although they might have Tangle Shot..after all, rangers can set traps. The Hammer Shot seems..well, I just can't figure out how that would work without pure alchemy or enchantment, unless you were a half-orc carrying an arbalest I think it should definitely be limited to rogues and maybe Marksman/mages and Archer/Mages - just my opinion, nothing more. But..if you DID decide to limit certain called shots to rogues then I can think of some possible replacement powers for the warriors. I'll let you figure out what levels these might be gained at (though I did make one suggestion about that)..
> Truestrike Shot: character uses intuition, meditation, prayer, etc to momentarily heighten his senses and focus his control. Next missile or thrown attack gains +1 TH and adds +2 to character's base crit range. Doesn't stack with magical crit range boosts. (Not sure "Truestrike" is the proper term..might need changed.) This is somewhat like the vanilla Called Shot and, again, works with ANY missile or thrown weapon, which would be nice for multis/duals that have put points into sling or thrown.
> Long Shot: Next bow shot gains +1 TH and range is extended by one class, i.e. a short range weapon could target something at medium range, a LR shot could reach XLR and a composite longbow should be able to hit pretty much any target on the screen that isn't obstructed! (Since the scale for the games is much smaller than tabletop this might not really make for a decent bonus, in which case the whole idea is probably not worth using..I leave that to experts like you.) The main uses of this called shot would be pulling mobs, extending status arrow range and making a little more room for the ever-popular explosive arrows
> Bleeding Shot: Precisely targeted bow shot that causes extra 1d4 + 1 bleeding damage for three rounds. Cure Light Wounds or better healing will close the wound enough to cancel further bleed damage. Doesn't work vs undead, incorporeal or the like but probably COULD hit phased/ethereal/astral with help from the right spell.
> Crippling Shot: An arrow to the knee! Randomly inflicts either -50% movement rate, -2 AC or -2 THAC0 until healed. Not effective against flying, incorporeal, giant centipedes, oozes and things without knees (or similar weak spots). 5 HP worth of healing in a single round will cancel the effect, ideally...hopefully that's possible to implement. If not then the effect might simply last until you either get a Cure Light Wounds or better effect or you've been out of combat for at least 30 seconds. I'm thinking you'd need to be at least level 8 to get this called shot - its potentially quite effective. Well, if the target has knees anyway.
> Missile Frenzy: Not a called shot but a new innate power for Marksman/Archer. For next two rounds character gains 0.5 APR with all bows. Increases to 1.0 APR at high level. It might even make sense to apply a minor TH penalty for all ranged attacks while this is active (-1 or 2). Cooldown should probably be at least an hour in game. Doesn't stack with Haste effects but DOES stack with APR bonus provided by enchanted ranged weapons.
And a few more that probably aren't even possible, but..
> Disarming Shot: Target takes no damage or status effect from arrow/bolt but must save vs. [whatever] or drop main weapon. A more advanced form of Fumbling Shot, essentially, but would only work if enemies can drop a weapon and then try to pick it back up..I can't remember if that happens in these games. Or maybe they could randomly switch to a different weapon for a round which might cost them an attack..that could simulate dropping and retrieving.
> Double Shot: (arrows only!) An advanced archery trick for shortbows and longbows, this allows the bowman to fire two arrows at the same time, with each getting -1 TH. (Again, no idea if this is feasible. Even if it was I doubt you could find a way to animate it.)
> Heavy Shot: (bolts only!) Extra manual cranking for extra punch. Crossbow gets +1d4 base dmg as well as +3 TH vs close range targets, +2 TH vs med range and +1 vs long ranged (no TH bonus for XLR). If game can't alter TH or damage by range then it could just be a flat +2 TH and 1d6+1 extra damage, save vs rod/staff/wand for half damage. Either way, for a Sniper this could be a brutal attack with good roles.
Obviously, for any called shot to work you need to be using ammo that can actually hurt your target. I considered suggesting an ability that lets normal missiles count as magical ones but at that point you're getting into Arcane Archer territory. Besides, who uses normal arrows after about 6th level? Hope you found these ideas at least entertaining.
Whoa @psycros that's a lot to take in... but all very welcome feedback. The thing is, several of those sounds very cool, but would either be very difficult top implement or would not have much effect in the game. I started out thinking about called shots like that, but then I flipped it around, and instead started from an effect that I knew could be triggered by in-game opcodes, and then worked backwards to the name and description of the shot. So:
- Entangle/root in place ... "pinning shot" ... the arrow staples some part of the target's clothes or body to the ground or furniture, holding them in place until they break free (but they can still engage in combat in that place) - Slow ... "tangling shot" ... the arrow snags the target's clothes and/or legs and causes them to spend a 2 rounds moving and fighting slowly. - Stun ... "stunning shot" ... the arrow hits the target's head and momentarily disorients them - Thac0 penalty ... "fumbling shot" ... the target hits the target's sword arm/whatever and causes temporary combat penalties - Blind ... "blinding shot" ... the arrow strikes the target near the eyes, forcing them shut for a couple moments
So, when thinking about called shots, it's best to start from the desired in-game effect, and work backward to the name and description. One that I might add is something that is close to the vanilla shot, causing a Strength penalty.
As for restricting different called shots to different kits: yeah, that's what I used to do, until I moved them to a feat system where you can choose new ones. I adapted the called-shots-as-feat from my warrior feats system, which is pretty basic. Since then I have designed my rogue feats system, which is far more flexible. I agree that some kits shouldn't have some called shots (the Slinger should not have a pinning shot, and the blinding shot should be restricted to Snipers, etc.) I can probably apply some of what I've learned from the rogue feats to give different pools of available called shots to different kits. It will take a bit of time though.
And that's why I'm not a modder - I wouldn't have seen the obvious way to tackle the problems like you do. (Actually that's why I gave up on programming as well..I would overthink everything or come at it from the wrong angle.) So called shots are feats..and feats are really innate powers. And feats are obtained by learning and casting a one-use spell that gives you a new innate? And certain kits obtain some of these one-use spells automatically at level-up. Is that how it works? Sorry, I'm just always curious about this stuff.
I'm all for variety, believe me..but TBH I think that if someone chooses a kit, they should really have to stick to a fairly rigid set of abilities and limitations. While I had a lot of issues with various feats in 3rd edition (such as how they made thieves almost irrelevant) the idea of feats themselves had merit. I think you and I think along the same lines. I really feel that some things should remain skills rather than feats. A feat, at least to my thinking, should be an extraordinary application of a skill rather than an entire skillset all its own. Eg: lockpicking is a very involved skill that requires months to learn just the basics and years to master. Lockpicking ability should NOT be a feat any more than "effectively fighting with heavy weapons" should be - its a core part of a career (class). Likewise, if someone just picks a straight fighter as his class then he should have access to the widest array of combat feats. He is essentially building his own fighter kit through those choices, but no feat should ever grant him tracking. That's a skill that should really be limited to rangers, druids and the like.
I wish there was some way you could pick a kit for a class after you've gotten a few levels in the base class. We actually experimented with that as part of our D&D house rules back in the day. So far, however, I haven't even found any way to pick a kit for multi-class characters in BGEE. I even tried installing the "remove racial restrictions for kits" and "remove racial restrictions for single classes" from one of the tweak compilations (don't recall which one) and I still didn't have any kit options. I could roll up a pure multi-class but that was it.
Whereas the 3E idea seems to have been, give lots of feats to human fighters, my idea is let the fighters stick to fighting and make rogues the masters of learned feats and clever tricks. Hopefully it makes them much more relevant, instead of irrelevant.
I heard that. I was done with 3rd ed when our spear-wielding fighter Great Cleaved his way through about 30 kobolds. By himself. In one round.
So the next time you cast the 'choose a feat' NRD spell, there is one less to choose from. (That's why my feats don't work for any class that multiclasses with wizards.)
But..fighter multis to wizard. Or are you saying that if you DO create a ftr/mag feats won't be available to him?
I wish there was some way you could pick a kit for a class after you've gotten a few levels in the base class. We actually experimented with that as part of our D&D house rules back in the day.
It's possible to make a mod that would do that. But no one has made that mod yet.
Well...if I'm reading it right, NPC_EE makes you choose a class for each NPC when you install the mod. Then you use the "choose kit" spell in-game..but it doesn't say anything about when you have to pick a kit. So does that mean you could do it later on if you wanted? NPC_EE sounds very interesting indeed. Heck, I think all its missing is the ability for it to randomly choose from a list of viable classes for each NPC. It would be neat to never know what you're getting with XAN - pure mage, mage with kit, fighter/mage, fighter/necromancer (bwa ha ha). Speaking of NPCs, I keep seeing Jaheira referred to as a druid. In my only BGEE 1.3 playthrough (I can't beat Sarevok) she's a fighter/druid. Also, I've repeatedly seen it said that fighter/druids can't wear metal armor and there are multiple mods that seem to enable that..but my Jaheira can wear anything. This is in an unmodded game, btw. I can only guess that I'm reading outdated info and that Beamdog made some changes later on.
One other thing: it doesn't seem like you can multiclass sorcerer in the vanilla game. Does NPC_EE allow for it?
I really appreciate your help and friendliness..a rare combination in the modding world. Can't wait to try out NPC_EE. Man, I am really going to have to figure out manual modding if BWS doesn't come back from limbo. So many things I want to try ; ;
I like the selection of ability. They all feel very appropriate. But I'm not sure if the normal rogue should have access to all of them.
Maybe give the basic rogue some minor psionics options but not access to all disciplines? And then have a Adept/Psion kit that can get full access? That would be in line to the other options I think.
Trueclass Rouge - can get a broad spectrum of feats Assassin - Poison & Backstab specialist Hunter - Trap & huntig specialist Swashbuckler - Nimble combat specialist Shadowdancer - Shadow Magic! Alchemist - Potions! Psion/Adept - Full Psionics!
But that is just how I feel ^^
I like the HP reduction, it will let you think before using them in melee and will limit there use.. How will they be selected? One ability per feet or on disciplines per feat?
Comments
I want to test and play that Alchemist so hard
Found some small thinks:
Ranger/Mage -> can select longbows proficiency, but cannot use them ingame. Ranger Mage can choose 3 feats, which then show a list of spells that can be cast (some level 1-3 spells). Can only be done once, and they do not return after sleep. I think they are not intended right?
Corsair -> Can select Backstab bonus, but has no stealth (very minor)
Stalker -> Dart Trap always seems to fail (tested with level 6 should have Set Tarp:45, tried around 20 times. Should Set Trap show up in the character sheet?
Blade -> is working fine
Shadowdancer -> Starts with Grease Jar but not smoke bomb (the feat gives both as intended)
Alchemist -> Same as Shadowdancer missing smoke bomb. Hulking Transformation 0 attacks per round (cannot attack)
Hope that feedback helps. Will test more when I find the time.
Like what you did with the Alchemist very much. Cool kit. Just need some APR to HULK SMASH!
About the Corsairs , I thought so, that is why its very minor
- Clerics are more like warrior priests and crusaders from there original background as far as I know.
- Thief have no special combat training. Maybe they can use a knife well etc.
Also Thief's are more versatile in P&P, were you can do a lot more things than in a combat based RPG (climbing and breaking in etc. was way more important than it is in Baldurs Gate).
So it was more or less balanced from this point of view.
But in my opinion, Baldurs Gate is combat driven, so they should be more useful in combat.
They also gave those classes the same progresses in 3rd edition, so I think you changes make sense.
Is there any kind of cooldown between uses of called shots? Because if there isn't then it seems like those kits would be really overpowered.
I also got to thinking about the called shots themselves. It seems odd that the Marksman would have the Blinding or Tangling shots since those have almost got to be alchemy or some kind of gadget (I'm thinking of the Thief games and the like). Stunning Shots could be explained by blunt arrows - this is actually used in Pillars of Eternity. Would it be possible to limit Blinding Shot and Tangling Shot to Marksmen who multi or dual-class rogues? Or maybe those two abilities should be limited to Snipers since their the rogue bow specialists. I also doubt a single-class Archer would have Blinding Shot although they might have Tangle Shot..after all, rangers can set traps. The Hammer Shot seems..well, I just can't figure out how that would work without pure alchemy or enchantment, unless you were a half-orc carrying an arbalest
> Truestrike Shot: character uses intuition, meditation, prayer, etc to momentarily heighten his senses and focus his control. Next missile or thrown attack gains +1 TH and adds +2 to character's base crit range. Doesn't stack with magical crit range boosts. (Not sure "Truestrike" is the proper term..might need changed.) This is somewhat like the vanilla Called Shot and, again, works with ANY missile or thrown weapon, which would be nice for multis/duals that have put points into sling or thrown.
> Long Shot: Next bow shot gains +1 TH and range is extended by one class, i.e. a short range weapon could target something at medium range, a LR shot could reach XLR and a composite longbow should be able to hit pretty much any target on the screen that isn't obstructed! (Since the scale for the games is much smaller than tabletop this might not really make for a decent bonus, in which case the whole idea is probably not worth using..I leave that to experts like you.) The main uses of this called shot would be pulling mobs, extending status arrow range and making a little more room for the ever-popular explosive arrows
> Bleeding Shot: Precisely targeted bow shot that causes extra 1d4 + 1 bleeding damage for three rounds. Cure Light Wounds or better healing will close the wound enough to cancel further bleed damage. Doesn't work vs undead, incorporeal or the like but probably COULD hit phased/ethereal/astral with help from the right spell.
> Crippling Shot: An arrow to the knee! Randomly inflicts either -50% movement rate, -2 AC or -2 THAC0 until healed. Not effective against flying, incorporeal, giant centipedes, oozes and things without knees (or similar weak spots). 5 HP worth of healing in a single round will cancel the effect, ideally...hopefully that's possible to implement. If not then the effect might simply last until you either get a Cure Light Wounds or better effect or you've been out of combat for at least 30 seconds. I'm thinking you'd need to be at least level 8 to get this called shot - its potentially quite effective. Well, if the target has knees anyway.
> Missile Frenzy: Not a called shot but a new innate power for Marksman/Archer. For next two rounds character gains 0.5 APR with all bows. Increases to 1.0 APR at high level. It might even make sense to apply a minor TH penalty for all ranged attacks while this is active (-1 or 2). Cooldown should probably be at least an hour in game. Doesn't stack with Haste effects but DOES stack with APR bonus provided by enchanted ranged weapons.
And a few more that probably aren't even possible, but..
> Disarming Shot: Target takes no damage or status effect from arrow/bolt but must save vs. [whatever] or drop main weapon. A more advanced form of Fumbling Shot, essentially, but would only work if enemies can drop a weapon and then try to pick it back up..I can't remember if that happens in these games. Or maybe they could randomly switch to a different weapon for a round which might cost them an attack..that could simulate dropping and retrieving.
> Double Shot: (arrows only!) An advanced archery trick for shortbows and longbows, this allows the bowman to fire two arrows at the same time, with each getting -1 TH. (Again, no idea if this is feasible. Even if it was I doubt you could find a way to animate it.)
> Heavy Shot: (bolts only!) Extra manual cranking for extra punch. Crossbow gets +1d4 base dmg as well as +3 TH vs close range targets, +2 TH vs med range and +1 vs long ranged (no TH bonus for XLR). If game can't alter TH or damage by range then it could just be a flat +2 TH and 1d6+1 extra damage, save vs rod/staff/wand for half damage. Either way, for a Sniper this could be a brutal attack with good roles.
Obviously, for any called shot to work you need to be using ammo that can actually hurt your target. I considered suggesting an ability that lets normal missiles count as magical ones but at that point you're getting into Arcane Archer territory. Besides, who uses normal arrows after about 6th level? Hope you found these ideas at least entertaining.
I'm all for variety, believe me..but TBH I think that if someone chooses a kit, they should really have to stick to a fairly rigid set of abilities and limitations. While I had a lot of issues with various feats in 3rd edition (such as how they made thieves almost irrelevant) the idea of feats themselves had merit. I think you and I think along the same lines. I really feel that some things should remain skills rather than feats. A feat, at least to my thinking, should be an extraordinary application of a skill rather than an entire skillset all its own. Eg: lockpicking is a very involved skill that requires months to learn just the basics and years to master. Lockpicking ability should NOT be a feat any more than "effectively fighting with heavy weapons" should be - its a core part of a career (class). Likewise, if someone just picks a straight fighter as his class then he should have access to the widest array of combat feats. He is essentially building his own fighter kit through those choices, but no feat should ever grant him tracking. That's a skill that should really be limited to rangers, druids and the like.
I wish there was some way you could pick a kit for a class after you've gotten a few levels in the base class. We actually experimented with that as part of our D&D house rules back in the day. So far, however, I haven't even found any way to pick a kit for multi-class characters in BGEE. I even tried installing the "remove racial restrictions for kits" and "remove racial restrictions for single classes" from one of the tweak compilations (don't recall which one) and I still didn't have any kit options. I could roll up a pure multi-class but that was it.
One other thing: it doesn't seem like you can multiclass sorcerer in the vanilla game. Does NPC_EE allow for it?
I really appreciate your help and friendliness..a rare combination in the modding world. Can't wait to try out NPC_EE. Man, I am really going to have to figure out manual modding if BWS doesn't come back from limbo. So many things I want to try ; ;
I like the selection of ability. They all feel very appropriate.
But I'm not sure if the normal rogue should have access to all of them.
Maybe give the basic rogue some minor psionics options but not access to all disciplines?
And then have a Adept/Psion kit that can get full access?
That would be in line to the other options I think.
Trueclass Rouge - can get a broad spectrum of feats
Assassin - Poison & Backstab specialist
Hunter - Trap & huntig specialist
Swashbuckler - Nimble combat specialist
Shadowdancer - Shadow Magic!
Alchemist - Potions!
Psion/Adept - Full Psionics!
But that is just how I feel ^^
I like the HP reduction, it will let you think before using them in melee and will limit there use..
How will they be selected? One ability per feet or on disciplines per feat?