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"Maybe this time" [NO-RELOAD THREAD]: "The Tale of TEN THOUSAND Trials"

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  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,320
    lroumen said:

    I'll do a random roll and compare to the invoker and paladin suggestions. Good idea on the rolling.

    Would a monk meet your original objectives? I could imagine an evil monk that still didn't want to loot and steal and whose needs were meagre enough to be able to live off quest rewards.
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,857
    Ygramul said:

    @Ygramul Well done against the dragon. It will always be a tough one.
    @Aasim I too was an ankheg farm rusher. It ended my run too. Quite a promising one.

    Is that battle avoidable?
    IIRC the dragon reacted to spell casting. Perhaps an invisible party can walk past that area?
    I think that you can get past with speed plus invisibility if you don't go for the eggs.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    Grond0 said:

    lroumen said:

    I'll do a random roll and compare to the invoker and paladin suggestions. Good idea on the rolling.

    Would a monk meet your original objectives? I could imagine an evil monk that still didn't want to loot and steal and whose needs were meagre enough to be able to live off quest rewards.
    ah. Dark Moon Monk was another I had in mind. Restartitis before even starting...

  • ussnorwayussnorway Member Posts: 341
    edited October 2016
    Bard- 2 ... Read last post

    to do list,





    collect some good magic items, kill the mine boss without letting him call the guards then stun a mage to find the bandits.
  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 591
    @Serg_BlackStrider

    Every time I see these BG1 animations, I wanna play that. GL&HF with your game.
  • Corey_RussellCorey_Russell Member Posts: 998
    edited October 2016

    @Corey_Russell: I've done testing in EE and found that only specialist mages get those save bonuses. You're saying that, in vanilla, generalist mages have a -2 save penalty on all of their spells?

    Because we confirmed that in both vanilla and EE specialist mages had a 15% bonus for scribing spells of their own school, and a 15% penalty for scribing spells outside of their school... making generalist mages better at scribing scrolls. And if generalist mages got universal save penalties on top of that, they would be far superior to specialists.

    Do you know if sorcerers, who are generalists by default, also get those bonuses? Do Wild Mages?

    Also, if @Aasim was playing with SCS, that could explain the curious save penalty for that lich. SCS randomizes enemy specializations, and that lich might have been a Conjurer.

    No, you don't understand - I am NOT talking about players - but NPC enemies only for the save penalty. In Netinfinity I think there is a either a "class" or "spell school" field, not sure which. But in any case if a enemy NPC casts a spell and those fields are empty for that enemy, then you get that save penalty. This is what happened to Aasim.

    Additional Note: This is why you also save vs. umber hulk confusion at -4 instead of -2 like it's supposed to be, because the Umber Hulks are basically casting a magical ability but weren't assigned a class. Any why Minsc is always hacking his own party members if you don't give him Lilacor. : )
  • Serg_BlackStriderSerg_BlackStrider Member Posts: 210

    @Corey_Russell:
    Also, if @Aasim was playing with SCS, that could explain the curious save penalty for that lich. SCS randomizes enemy specializations, and that lich might have been a Conjurer.

    No, you don't understand - I am NOT talking about players - but NPC enemies only for the save penalty. In Netinfinity I think there is a either a "class" or "spell school" field, not sure which. But in any case if a enemy NPC casts a spell and those fields are empty for that enemy, then you get that save penalty. This is what happened to Aasim.
    Out of curiosity I've just checked with NearInfinity all CRE files for Liches in my archived clean BG2 SoA/ToB setup and the only non-named Lich (not an Elemental or Shade or Kangaxx etc.) which might be the one in question (LICH01.CRE) is indeed a Conjurer.
  • EnuhalEnuhal Member, Moderator Posts: 944
    edited October 2016
    As I understand it, GrimJim's observations mean that (since symbols do have a spell school) the Lich propably had to be a conjurer, as semiticgod suggested.

    edit: seems like everyone reached this conclusion at the same time
  • Corey_RussellCorey_Russell Member Posts: 998

    @Corey_Russell:
    Also, if @Aasim was playing with SCS, that could explain the curious save penalty for that lich. SCS randomizes enemy specializations, and that lich might have been a Conjurer.

    No, you don't understand - I am NOT talking about players - but NPC enemies only for the save penalty. In Netinfinity I think there is a either a "class" or "spell school" field, not sure which. But in any case if a enemy NPC casts a spell and those fields are empty for that enemy, then you get that save penalty. This is what happened to Aasim.
    Out of curiosity I've just checked with NearInfinity all CRE files for Liches in my archived clean BG2 SoA/ToB setup and the only non-named Lich (not an Elemental or Shade or Kangaxx etc.) which might be the one in question (LICH01.CRE) is indeed a Conjurer.
    The other thing GrimJim found out is that if an enemy creature HAS a class, but the spell they are trying to cast DOESN'T have a school, then that also will do the spell penalty. Granted Symbol:Stun has a spell school IF it's the same as player one, but perhaps if EE then the conjurer lich/conjuration Symbol: Stun is the best explanation in this case.
  • Corey_RussellCorey_Russell Member Posts: 998
    edited October 2016
    With Google's help, finally found the post GrimJim wrote about classes of NPCs and effects of magical spells/abilities: https://forum.bioware.com/topic/560248-the-adventurers-lounge-guidance-and-support-for-no-reload-challengers-newbie-or-veteran/?p=20187488

    EDIT:
    Once again, the above link will be gone in a while, so here is the text:
    **********************************************************************

    Some more test results from a Fixpack + TobEx beta 0026 install:
    TobEx does not fix the bug like I previously thought.
    Whatever is going on is definitely an improper interaction between a creature's kit and the specialist save bonus/penalty. For example, when a shadow fiend has its kit set as TRUECLASS, your save vs. death needs to be 1 to always save against its paralyzing attack. When its kit is changed to NO_KIT, your save needs to -1.
    Kitted fighters and rangers appear to benefit from this bug. They get the specialist save bonus against school-less spells and enemies get a save penalty against the on-hit effects of their weapons. I didn't test any other kits, so they may also be affected.
    This is definitely an engine bug, so a complete fix would require an improvement to TobEx which is beyond what I'm capable of. In any case, the main takeaway is that if your save is 2 below what you would normally expect to need to guarantee a save, you should be fine.
    Post edited by Corey_Russell on
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    So enemies in vanilla get save penalties all the time. This would explain why people suspected saves vs. spell worked differently from saves vs. death, because you need -1 to guarantee a save against the former and just 1 for the latter. Since few spells, even Finger of Death, use a save vs. death, you almost never saw that undocumented save penalty on saves vs. death, and so it created the illusion that only saves vs. spell worked that way.

    An important exception would be a Beholder's Death Ray, which is a Necromancy spell and would therefore get the extra -2 save penalty.

    Do the enemy save penalties work this way in EE?
  • Corey_RussellCorey_Russell Member Posts: 998
    edited October 2016
    @semiticgod This behavior is part of the engine - so unless a mod or EE readme specifally says they fix it, then yes would be part of EE.

    EDIT:
    Note that since my BioWare links are going away shortly, I copied the text here in my posts above so we would have a record, you should re-check my re-edited posts above.
  • Corey_RussellCorey_Russell Member Posts: 998
    edited October 2016
    Aasim said:


    Some more test results from a Fixpack + TobEx beta 0026 install:
    TobEx does not fix the bug like I previously thought.
    Whatever is going on is definitely an improper interaction between a creature's kit and the specialist save bonus/penalty. For example, when a shadow fiend has its kit set as TRUECLASS, your save vs. death needs to be 1 to always save against its paralyzing attack. When its kit is changed to NO_KIT, your save needs to -1.

    This is soo odd. I'll do some testing with this. So far, I've noticed that this works as the opposite of what's quoted here. NO_KIT is easier to resist, if you kit a shadow fiend as a skald or whatever else (Shadow bards ftw!) suddenly his attack can paralyze you even at save vs death = 0. If he's NO_KIT, save vs death = 1 is enough to never fail the save.
    Incredible....
    It also works with kits and any on-hit effects. Kensai has a better chance for triggering Celestial Fury's stun then a regular fighter, and will have a chance to stun a target with save vs spell at 1, which a trueclass figher never will.
    Again, incredible. Korgan can swing Unyielding better then Mazzy simply because he's a berserker and his vorpal will come with an additional -2 penalty just because of that.
    Multiclass fighters don't benefit from this, but dual-classed do. kensai/berserker-mage duals now seem even more omnipotent than before...
    I'll check about the spells tomorrow.
    @Aasim You need to look at everything I added above. I wrote he reversed himself in this post https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/818240/#Comment_818240 above - basically in that comment there's this line:

    GrimJim said...

    if a character with no kit casts a spell with no school, the specialist save penalty applies.


    Therefore, he agrees with you actually, and your results confirm what he said.

    EDIT: Oops, misread what you said - confusing topic lol. Guess you are getting different results. It's clear results are not what you expect though. Like GrimJim said, for no-reloading purposes, basically just add +2 to whatever save you are wanting to make to "insure" a save.
  • Blind_VisionaryBlind_Visionary Member Posts: 203
    Ah, I'm going to let Nephele's run end... I think I need a break from the shadowdancer kit. It's almost foolproof, but also a bit tedious... another character coming up.
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