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The long-awaited SoD review by GameBanshee

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  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 186
    edited December 2016
    @shawne I disagree as Beamdog seems much more moderate in their progressive views and tolerant of opposing opinion. Treant himself made this very apparent in his acknowledgements and rectifications.. however this is besides the point

    People calling us all bigots is pretty bad, but I have to draw the line once accuses me (or anyone here for that matter) as a sexist. Neither side of the debate was sexist, no one here deserves such a label.

    Let me make this very clear, usually I wouldn't care about your snide remarks as I would just counter them with my own insults. However this seems to be a respectful thread, so I kindly ask you a second time to be respectful of people in here that you disagree with.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    In one of R.A. Salvatore's novels, Drizzt Do'Urden observes that it is best to offer people respect without demanding that they earn it. Demanding that people earn our respect comes off as presumptuous--after all, did we do anything to deserve their respect?

    Instead, we should grant respect from the beginning. If people are truly not worthy of respect, you can always retract that respect later.

    But Drizzt's position is irrelevant because the Site Rules clearly state that no one here has to "earn" anyone's respect; it is a given.
    Dee said:


    Rule 4: Respect Each Other.
    This one should go without saying. Even if you don't agree with someone, do them the courtesy of addressing that disagreement in a civil manner, or don't address it at all. If you think someone has violated any of the above rules, please do not attempt to deal with the matter yourself. Inform a moderator, and let us handle it. We're very good at our jobs, and we don't outsource.

    NimranBelgarathMTHJuliusBorisov
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    edited December 2016
    I always liked the Army's definition of respect. "Treat people as they should be treated." Actually...no. That's a bad idea. We'd probably end up with a lot of dead people. Unless...Army, you're brilliant. I just realized that we've been giving proper respect to our enemies. :D


    Also on a completely different note: know what is kinda sad? That I hate gamergate with a passion because of their harassment campaign. And no matter what they do in the future, I'll always see them as akin to a terrorist organization, sending a message to game developers: "upset us and we will destroy you. Cater to our whims or we will review bomb and troll you to oblivion." Truly upsets me. Will never forgive gamergate for this. And should I have the misfortune of meeting one of them...well, I can honestly say that my opinion of that person will begin at a truly subterranium level. Because it isn't about ethics in journalism. It is about fighting a culture war with scorched earth tactics.
    BlackravenBelgarathMTH[Deleted User]Nonnahswriter
  • EnilwynEnilwyn Member Posts: 140
    edited December 2016
    @semiticgod Speaking of Drizzt, I haven't gotten through Archmage yet, but a writer could use several social issues from his world alone (racism, escapism, being an outcast, sexism, xenophobia, orc-equality, and the list goes on). On a side note, I am in the, "can we kill Drizzt yet" camp of readers. I've never been a fan of his soliloquies and I love rooting for Menzoberranzan.

    There are a lot of political/social tie-ins that could be made and keep the immersion deeply rooted in the source material. I'm sure the BG timeline is a headache though.

    @JuliusBorisov, is that something the devs think about or is the creative process completely different?

    Edit: grammar
    Post edited by Enilwyn on
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Wonderful post. Far more calm and collected than anything I could have written.
    EnilwynNonnahswriter
  • EnilwynEnilwyn Member Posts: 140
    @Illydth quality post that. In no way does that fan any flames.
    Grum
  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    @Teo_live

    Apparently, a ")" At the end of a name is still treated as part of the "@" thus it's likely you weren't properly tagged. I like to make sure everyone I respond to does, indeed, know. It gives you the opportunity to respond if you wish. :)

    I like to play fair with those I dialog with. :)
  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 186
    edited December 2016
    Had a short 4 hour power nap, wake up and 10 new posts added (of mostly opposition) holy crap that is amazing. I didn't think I prodded an open wound that hard. @Illydth replying to your posts AND your link will be way to big I am in a mad rush atm so I will just focus on the post for now and the link another time. Make of it what you will
    Illydth said:

    However, as you (@Teo_live) do seem like a guy with an opinion that goes above "OMG TRANS!" I'll respond to a piece of this to hopefully give you another perspective.

    :) I hope so
    Illydth said:

    Actually, it's not. It's grounded in a very large amount of fact and very very public example. Are you aware that the Gamer's gate folks on Reddit have been banned from various Reddit forums?

    Are you aware conservative folks in all fields sometimes get banned on all platforms of social media frequently not just reddit? Even worse some people had their posts edited without approval. Freedom of speech... is a fleeting concept for non-progressive mindsets in my opinion.

    Still not as bad as twitter, they are beyond hope. Then they wonder why they stocks drop to the floor...
    Illydth said:

    As a perspective to you, when you start posting on this topic you will be immediately linked to the Gamersgate / Kotaku-In-Action folks by others on this forum. Because no one here knows you in real life or what kind of person you are, we can only go by your posts, and if your post is another rehash of "OMG Trans!" then, right or wrong, many people here are going to equate you with a Gamer's Gater.

    No I self identified myself as their kindred in this thread, knowing quite well I will receive a backlash from hell from some people here that I shall not name. I was also around when these so called "OMG trans" threads appeared here (I wasn't vocal though, a silent browser so to speak). It was nasty on both sides, but I think "OMG bad writing" or "OMG forced politics" is more accurate....

    TBH I don't like either side of the spectrum being labelled with "SJW" or "bigots" respectively. 99% of people on either side of the extremes imho are just normal people being sensible it was the media blew both sides into the boogeyman (I am looking at you polygon). On a side note, this thread I waited for a multitude of people to mention Mizhena before I did. I don't like bringing her up first
    Illydth said:

    While that may not have been your intent, and while your opinion may not be that of Kotaku-In-Action, if you read pretty much anything by what might very well be only a small subsection (but a very vocal and very public subsection) of their members, you'll find that the statement above about lumping Gamer's Gate in with women haters isn't far off the mark.

    This is my first major point of disagreement with you. Both sides lumping each other with name calling is completely idiotic.

    I can safely assume I have read more Kokatu-in-action threads than most people here.... naturally. Gaters there (or any conservatives in general) that are "women haters" are incredibly small, a minority of a minority. As I said before the vast majority on both sides seem like normal rational humans. It would as insane as me saying people here are male haters, maybe one or 2 ultra progressives actually do hate males (hashtag kill all white men?) but the vast majority on either side don't view genitalia as Ambers main problem.
    Illydth said:

    I'm not suggesting that the conversation around Mizhena reaches anything close to the importance of any of the above, I'm simply suggesting that when it comes to difficult conversations, as a society we generally don't hold those openly in public spaces because we respect that those around us may have differing opinions that we do. And while the opinion of what makes SoD A good or bad game is absolutely relevant on this forum (and Mizhena might be a factor in that) focusing on such a small subsection of a 60+ hour gameplay game will absolutely lump you in with a group you may not wish to be lumped in with. And when that happens, complaining that people aren't hearing your intent for your words, or that people are putting words in your mouth that you never intended WILL fall on deaf ears

    People can lump me in with whatever they wish. Some people called my collective group fat already lol, it doesn't get worse than that :p

    Even so with this mysterious upcoming patch supposedly improving her that no one knows much about? What better time to talk about her? Yes it is divisive but Amber Scott imho broke that ice with extreme politics. On a side note, what on earth is the new patch going to do with her anyway? Is Mizhena going to remain minor and irrelevant?
    Post edited by Teo_live on
    semiticgoddessGallowglass
  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 186
    edited December 2016
    *Edit: Great... facepalm... you sure showed me @shawne , I still don't understand why you have to be snide toward opposing views? I guess it is the only way you feel you can get a point across? :|
    Grum said:

    "a side note, what on earth is the new patch going to do with her anyway? Is Mizhena going to remain minor and irrelevant?"

    I hope so. Because it's pretty clear that most of the haters are just going to hate. Caving to them is a trap which will allow them to complain so more. She's trans. Who cares? She mentions it like its nothing and that's a good thing. Having her 'have to be' a major fleshed out character just enforces the notion that trans is 'other' and has to stand out.

    Are you really that paranoid about your strongly critical fellow gamers? It is... kinda sad it came to this :'(

    Use me as an example here, when I said:
    "I think mizhena has the potential to be an awesome character, she has a sweet voice, interesting virtues etc"
    ...do you really think I am liar trying to lay a [transphobic-trap] here just so I can complain more?

    Yes no one has to be "major" though how else do you plan on slowly healing the SoD divide in the BG fan community and Treant already mentioned adding more to her should have happened so I revived my faith in beamdog and eventually bought the game. Look if you really think we are all just fake bigots laying traps then prove us wrong. Flesh her out if for no other reason than to expose us for the frauds you think we are...
    Post edited by Teo_live on
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited December 2016
    Teo_live said:

    Yes no one has to be "major" though how else do you plan on slowly healing the SoD divide in the BG fan community and Treant already mentioned adding more to her should have happened so I revived my faith in beamdog and eventually bought the game. Look if you really think we are all just fake bigots laying traps then prove us wrong. Flesh her out if for no other reason than to expose us for the frauds you think we are...

    Oh, sure. "Fake bigots" have never reacted poorly to fleshed-out trans characters. Must've been some other horde of trolls that complained for an entire year about Krem Aclassi.
    Grum said:

    These "people" and I use that as a biological term only, are doing that and worse. You really are trying to tell me all of those "people" really want what amounts to Thalantyr fleshed out more?

    image
    Grum
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,305
    Teo_live said:

    Grum said:

    Caving to them is a trap which will allow them to complain so more. She's trans. Who cares? She mentions it like its nothing and that's a good thing. Having her 'have to be' a major fleshed out character just enforces the notion that trans is 'other' and has to stand out.

    Are you really that paranoid about your fellow gamers on the other side of the fence? It is... kinda sad :'(
    I agree that Grum's statement about the likelihood of complaining is something born of frustration and not helpful to a productive discussion. However, I don't think that's the main issue - he also says, quite correctly in my view, that Mizhena is a minor character and should be allowed to remain like that without having to make a big deal out of the fact that she happens to be trans. There are hundreds of minor characters, such as quest givers and shopkeepers, in the game and very few of them have more dialogue (or indeed better-written dialogue) than Mizhena. The only thing that separates Mizhena from others is that she's trans - and it would seem to me to be better not to exacerbate that separation by emphasising her difference, but just leave the character as written, i.e. a minor character with a vaguely interesting back story ...

    If someone is interested and wants to explore her character further then that can be done in a mod - as with many existing NPCs.
    GrumJuliusBorisov
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Teo_live said:

    *Edit: Great... facepalm... you sure showed me @shawne , I still don't understand why you have to be snide toward opposing views? I guess it is the only way you feel you can get a point across? :|

    Claiming you have an "opposing view" is generous at this point. All you've done so far is parrot the same old tired debunked rhetoric we've seen on this forum a hundred times. And you have the gall to act offended because I'm being snide. Sit down.
    Kilivitz
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    Some people don't seem to realize that saying "it's my opinion" isn't a shield. Opinions aren't necessarily equal in value, they can be challenged and while you are certainly free to express any opinion you want, others are equally free to judge you for it.
    shawneKilivitzNonnahswriter
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    I think it's fascinating that in all the threads the topic of why Mizhena is the only vendor that needs to be fleshed out has arisen, no one from the side that is pro that has ever responded why.
    I've seen that request more times than I can remember by now and I have still not seen why she has been singled out as the only minor vendor that needs to become something more. Many ppl have also made accurate comparisons to other vendors from old BG1&2 which has never been requested to be fleshed out more than what they already are, but still no reply. I believe this is one of the reasons why ppl lump together GG'ers with women haters etc, since the issue of single out one character in need of fleshing out that just happens to be trans ofc begs the question: why only her and no other?

    @Teo_live, I would appreciate if you could take the time to educate me as I am thoroughly interested.

    If this post comes across as sarcastic, I'll just say here that it isn't. I'm genuinely intrigued and perplexed.
    Grond0Teo_live
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited December 2016
    @Skatan: The problem, I think, is that because it's such a cliche these days to throw around labels whether they're accurate or not, we've all adopted this mindset of "no one's really racist, no one's really transphobic, there must be another explanation."

    As a result of that, we end up trying to intellectualize and rationalize responses when there are no deeper meanings. This person is just the latest in a long, long line of small-minded bigots who show up, spew their monotonous misinformed opinions all over the forum, argue with everyone that they're the ones being discriminated against, and ultimately either get banned or lose interest in favor of their next victim. It's all in the archived and locked threads here, in black and white. Same exact pattern each time.

    That's why it's such a waste of time to try and engage with them on any deeper level. This person has been repeatedly made aware of the fact that Amber Scott is a very small part of the machine, and their next post was "Amber Scott broke the ice with extreme politics." What are you supposed to do with that? What's the point in asking them to elaborate? This is all there is.

    (This is also why I find @semiticgod's comparison to be rather troubling - setting aside the obvious counter of "Drizzt respects everyone, but he also decapitates trolls without a second thought", @Kurona has it: not all opinions are equal, or equally valid. I will not respect someone who demonizes women out of ignorance, nor should the Site Rules be invoked to equalize or normalize that kind of behavior.)
    [Deleted User]Kilivitz
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    @Teo_live: I think you have already expressed here everything you have wanted about Mizhena, and people have already given the opposing arguments. If this talk continues, it will only do so in circles. Which is very far from a productive discussion.

    You have recently purchased SoD, and I highly appreciate it. Now maybe it's time for you to give it a go, play the expansion till the end, see what it is about and what it does offer, and maybe only afterwards return to the topic of Mizhena (if you will want to return to this topic after trying SoD).

    As I've said twice in this thread already, SoD is not about Mizhena, and the review in the OP has managed to look at other things in the expansion.
    shawne said:

    This person is just the latest in a long, long line of small-minded bigots who show up, spew their monotonous misinformed opinions all over the forum

    This thread has remained civil and it will continue to do so, especially if we don't generalize and don't speak about intelligence of other posters. A moderator has already quoted the rule to respect each other, @shawne .
    Teo_liveGallowglasssemiticgoddess
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Of course there are a whole lot of people involved in producing a game, but various individuals have their own creative contributions to the process, which are often quite identifiable and which the originators are usually proud to have (and to be seen to have) contributed. For example, I particularly recall that when there was some debate about the inclusion of Hexxat, Andrew Foley stepped forward with clarifications in which he specifically took credit (or blame, depending upon each reader's approval rating) for writing Hexxat - not "WotC did it" or "it was an unattributable corporate emergence", but him.

    Artists can't have it both ways, saying "I did that! Me, me!" when their contributions are applauded, but then hiding behind the corporate machine and saying "Nothing to do with me, guv!" when there's criticism. Both Andrew and Amber (as the two main writers for SoD) have been happy to accept praise (and rightly so) for some of their work, and so far as I am aware (and to their credit) neither has been so hypocritical as to deny responsibility for other details which have been criticised.

    I have persistently assumed that Amber Scott wrote Mizhena because I vaguely recall an interview in which (it seemed to me that) she took responsibility for having done so. However, I don't now remember the details, so perhaps I may have misinterpreted what she said, or perhaps I was misled by incorrect assertions from others. I haven't previously corrected the attribution, because I've never before seen anyone suggest that it was incorrect - if anyone did, then I missed it. It seems previously to have been uncontroversial that Mizhena was Amber's creation. If that's not so, then I'll happily stand corrected (although in the latter case I'll be interested to hear who else's idea it was).

    None of this is anything to do with Amber's sex, that's utterly coincidental and irrelevant. It's an absurd suggestion (by @Grum, for example) that one is a misogynist merely because one criticises something which happens to have been (or which I believed, possibly incorrectly, had been acknowledged to have been) written by someone who irrelevantly happens to be female. In other threads, I've criticised some of Andrew's contributions (e.g. Hexxat), yet somehow no-one thought to accuse me of misandry merely because he's male.
    Teo_live
  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 186
    edited December 2016
    *Edit: @Illydth I can't really say I agree (Gallowglass summed it up perfectly). I personally try not judge anyone by their association, if people want to treat me in kind it is ultimately their choice. Thanks for taking time out to post here and give us your perspective on things.*

    @JuliusBorisov Right you are. The dust was pretty much settled by page 4 imo all sides had good input, in hindsight I would have left it at that.

    One final question though before I temporarily abandon this thread, where do we find information about the up coming patch changes and it's release date? As you can tell, I am interested... I can't find any details about it though
    Post edited by Teo_live on
    JuliusBorisov
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Teo_live said:

    I can't find any details about it though

    Neither details nor date have yet been announced. We'll see it when we see it.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    edited December 2016
    There's no ETA on the next patch, and not much information is available, but we have
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/61876/bg-sod-bgii-v-2-4-what-will-it-add-change/ with several things highlighted and news about the Mizhena update.
    CrevsDaak
This discussion has been closed.