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Just can't enjoy Siege

123457

Comments

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 668
    bleusteel said:

    I thought it was clear that the canon party was captured with you because of their motivation from BG1.

    Jaheira and Khalid swore to watch over Charname (whether Charname wants to be watched or not).

    Dynaheir and Minsc were on a mission to study Bhaalspawn.

    Imoen is your sister and asked people from the siege camp for help. The only ones motivated to do so were the canon members.

    Makes sense to me.

    Make sense to me, too. But where in SoD are these motivations stated? If these are the reasons these NPCs join at the end of SoD, then SoD didn't do its homework because it is nowhere stated. It's head canon, if at all.

    I don't think Dynaheir in original (unmodded) game ever states her search for Bhaalspawn? I think it's added by BG1NPC Project, tbh.

    I posted these motivations myself a while back somewhere on these forums. They are what came to me after pondering about it for a while - because their joining was something SoD was supposed to *explain* but failed.



    ineth
  • BleriotBleriot Member Posts: 31
    Kusel said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @verlaine Because, after being ousted to Caelar by Charname, he can't. He is forced to flee and attacks the Coalition camp to try and acquire a staging area for his own siege on Dragonspear. The dead coalition soldiers would also provide good undead fodder.

    I did play the version @verlaine is mentioning as well. You had the battle more or less with H. taking Caelar's role.
    I understand why it's not good, it just felt as railroaded as it was before, like there needs to be that battle come what may. We have the big code and the pyrotechnics and we need to show them to you.
    In the end, less can be more. When you confront H. with what you know and you convince C. to believe you, he flees to the portal. And when you follow, he plays the trick like in original. And you go on from there.
    Why not discuss this in the mod's own topic?
    Maybe here is not the best place. Ask the author directly is far better.

  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 631

    A commentator said this about the latest Star Wars trilogy and the film, The Last Jedi, in particular.

    "They had one chance, one chance in the history of the universe to bring back the original cast and give us the closure that, as fans, we have been waiting for.
    And they blew it."

    SOD is nowhere near as bad and obviously the emotional involvement is nowhere near as devastating, characters, at least, survived intact.

    Oh man, I loved SoD, but if people despise it as much as I despise The Last Jedi then I have to feel empathy for them. That damn movie left a hole in my soul...

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,980
    Dev6 said:

    A commentator said this about the latest Star Wars trilogy and the film, The Last Jedi, in particular.

    "They had one chance, one chance in the history of the universe to bring back the original cast and give us the closure that, as fans, we have been waiting for.
    And they blew it."

    SOD is nowhere near as bad and obviously the emotional involvement is nowhere near as devastating, characters, at least, survived intact.

    Oh man, I loved SoD, but if people despise it as much as I despise The Last Jedi then I have to feel empathy for them. That damn movie left a hole in my soul...
    I don't despise SOD, far from it. It's a good game, but not a BG game.

    But it strikes me the same type of mistake was made.
    Too keen to make "their" mark, too keen to update in an effort to be "relevant".
    Hubris in a nutshell.

  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 384
    edited March 6
    Grum said:

    jastey said:

    bleusteel said:

    I thought it was clear that the canon party was captured with you because of their motivation from BG1.

    Jaheira and Khalid swore to watch over Charname (whether Charname wants to be watched or not).

    Dynaheir and Minsc were on a mission to study Bhaalspawn.

    Imoen is your sister and asked people from the siege camp for help. The only ones motivated to do so were the canon members.

    Makes sense to me.

    Make sense to me, too. But where in SoD are these motivations stated? If these are the reasons these NPCs join at the end of SoD, then SoD didn't do its homework because it is nowhere stated. It's head canon, if at all.

    I don't think Dynaheir in original (unmodded) game ever states her search for Bhaalspawn? I think it's added by BG1NPC Project, tbh.

    I posted these motivations myself a while back somewhere on these forums. They are what came to me after pondering about it for a while - because their joining was something SoD was supposed to *explain* but failed.



    If you charm her in BG1 she tells you that.
    SoD didn’t address the canon party’s motivation because it never changed from BG1.

    I’m almost to the end of my second SoD playthrough, but I’m pretty certain that Dynaheir or Jaheira says something along the lines of
    Charname might be an a$$ but it’s our duty to keep an eye on them.

    ThacoBellQuartz
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,923
    BTW, @UnderstandMouseMagic I know that, for people my age, Star Wars was ruined many years ago. It was bad enough watching the third movie, “The Care Bears Save the Universe”. But even before that, there was this

    Star Wars Holiday Special

    OrlonKronsteenNimranThacoBellMirandel
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,695
    @Kusel I'm refferring to my hypothetical alternate version.

  • LAZERDOGLAZERDOG Member Posts: 27
    Ardanis said:

    It's been thought about, but not really planned. My version would have involved defending the castle from coalition troops (much like in NWN HotU), but it'd require giving PC a very good reason to suddenly turn on his allies and side with the enemy - definitely not some "I make decisions here" one-liner excuse.

    Interestingly I would have expected an entirely different turn of events when joining forces with Caelar. Imho a good point of joining her could have been after surrendering Bridgefort. In fact, for this very reason I was like "Heya - it's me - Bhaalspawn (TM)!". After all, I had just (with a little liberty) completed the task given to me by Kharem(?) and the crusade could finally call the fort theirs. The fact that you couldn't join Caelar (or be delivered to her :p ) in any of the scenes felt incredibly rail-road-ish and is my number one disappointment with the title. I love so much about it - but it just happened to deny the choices that I tried to make at every corner :p

    Anyways I would have expected something along the lines of:
    • Joining Caelar and agreeing to follow her crusade, using your blood to open the portal (voluntarily or not)
    • Making some last minute preparations (side quests similar to the under-cover quests in Dragonspear), however not so much focussed on the alliance (they should, if I'm not mistaken, be a few days behind) but rather on the invasion of hell
    • Potentially falling for Hephernan's trap - i.e. witnessing the crusade fall apart within hell. This section would of course be a lot bigger than in the final game - potentially with multiple decisions and outcomes
    • Returning from hell and facing the consequences of the failed crusade (which could lead to the Bhaalspawn fleeing directly (which could tie into the actual epilogue) or battling any hellspawn that may have escaped the portal (a potential alternate siege scene here??) and finally facing trial for your choices - again tying in the actual ending of SoD
    Needless to say that would have required a lot of additional development resources. But imho it felt like we could make such a choice in so many places in the game, that it felt pretty underwhelming that there was actually no choice at all...

    Anyways thanks for mentioning Roxanne's mod. I'll surely check that one out :) Too bad the second part of it is on hold o.O

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    I enjoyed Siege of Dragonspear, but I also would prefer a new world with new characters utilizing the Infinity Engine.

    QuartzMantis37
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,378
    It's a minor complaint, but one thing that irked me in SOD was the way the characters abused that weapon swinging animation as a point of emphasis when doing things in this game. There are certain points where it's useful - namely, that one Fist in front of the Ducal Palace, plus Hephernan with the one crusader goon on the first bridge - but there, that's because it's important to get across that there's a physical beating happening. Otherwise, you get weird and awkward bits like the argument between Berta and Lon in the Iron Throne building, where they do their spellcasting animation, and it's just completely pointless. I get the sense they were trying to make things feel more dynamic with this, but most of the time, I think it just served to draw more attention to the limitations of the engine. Rather the opposite of their intent, I think.

    JuliusBorisovArdanisArtona
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,378
    I'll admit, Entar is kind of a difficult element in this game, to say the least. Because yeah, while it makes sense that he could be brought back to life given what the setting's like, it still invalidates the original plot point about Sarevok becoming a duke...specifically to replace Entar. Also, I don't know whose idea it was to give him that comical French accent, but they need one hell of an explanation for why he sounds like that, when nobody else in the city, including his own daughter sounds the least bit similar.

    And given how important the Silvershields are to the plot, to have their very inclusion open a bunch of plot holes, well, it suggests that the story is fundamentally compromised.

    RaduzielMirandelQuartz
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 668
    edited April 26

    Announcing that Skie's father was really just on the cusp of being brought back to life during that entire sequence really diminishes the significance of it IMO.

    Just a quick note to this: I agree that it feels strange and had never thought about it before.
    Yet, I always saw it as canon that Duke Silvershield gets resurrected - or at least it isn't excluded (whereas concerning Scar there is no information whatsoever). I don't recall where I have this info from, but I searched for it long before SoD was released.
    From this point of view, it would be BG1 being the drama queen, actually. :)

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,695
    "Announcing that Skie's father was really just on the cusp of being brought back to life during that entire sequence really diminishes the significance of it IMO."

    Really? Why? Nothing in BG1 says he can't be brought back. Remember that the Dukes were actively trying to prevent a war that Sarevok wanted. The assassination was was most certainly spun as Amnish agression. Entar looks weak, if he can't protect himself, how can he protect Baldur's Gate? Sarevok, who was already gaining favor amongst the nobility, steps up as a stronger successor that will do what is neccesssarry to protect the people. It fits together really well IMO. Entar would have been ressurrected only to find out he had been replaced.

    semiticgod
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 2,966
    jastey said:

    Announcing that Skie's father was really just on the cusp of being brought back to life during that entire sequence really diminishes the significance of it IMO.

    Just a quick note to this: I agree that it feels strange and had never thought about it before.
    Yet, I always saw it as canon that Duke Silvershield gets resurrected - or at least it isn't excluded (whereas concerning Scar there is no information whatsoever). I don't recall where I have this info from, but I searched for it long before SoD was released.
    From this point of view, it would be BG1 being the drama queen, actually. :)

    @jastey Excuse the side note here, but your work on Scar, The Return (from Romantic Encounters) adds an alternate ending that is quite good. B)

    ArdanisRavenslightUnderstandMouseMagic
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 668
    @Zaghoul Thank you very much for the kind words! Preparing that was the occasion where I made research whether there is any canon information about who is resurrected when. :) (Since I didn't find any info on Scar the component tries to refect that.)

    ZaghoulRavenslightMirandel
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 610
    edited April 27
    Well there are continuity problems between BG1-2 as well, but what I don't get is how trying to breach the gap between the two games with SoD ended up creating more continuity issues, since as of this moment BG2 still pretends SoD never happened.

    I mean what was the plan here when SoD was in the planning stages?(And yes I know SoD was initially conceived as a standalone game separate from the series) Because I honestly thought there would be some sort of reference in shadows of amn through a patch or something. A small quest or I don't know ''something''

    And if they can spend time rewriting Mizhena, then certainly they can offer more closure for the whole Soultaker plot somehow..?:\

    Also lately I've been thinking it's a pity Imoen was sent away AGAIN..It's pretty much like Shadows of Amn wheres shes hardly involved at all.. Nono.. off to Hogwarts with you.

    OrlonKronsteenMalicronQuartzLoldrup
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 449



    I can't comment on the main quest OR new NPCs in SoD because I didn't play far enough into it to thoroughly experience those aspects of it.

    It's a pity you could not finish the game! I would love to see your reaction on the ending :smiley:

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 372
    Reading this thread really makes me think.

    I enjoy SoD a lot. Everything “works” imho - the writting, the story, the quests and the npc’s.

    I have enjoyed the ee era so far. The npc’s work well and blend in nicely. The ee npc’s are better than the BG1 counterparts, and up to par with most bg2 npc’s.

    Off course they cant stand up besides the well written Anomen D. (he is my number one go to guy, and I always put up with him - he did grow up with an abussive parent and is a veteran, so cut him some slack).

    So in all I have massive respect for the ee add ons, and while I fully support the closing of plotholes, its only because I would love to see more new Beamdog content in the BG:ee saga and in Iwd:ee.

    ThacoBellAerakar
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,695
    @Tarnfara The purpose of the Crusade is meant to be a mystery in the begining. The only things anyone knows about is that the people that make up the army are calling it a Crusade, and that it is lead by a "shining lady". The main plot is finding out what its purpose is, and to stop it.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 562
    edited May 9
    Irenicus used to be an elf and they live very long lives and have a divine soul in spiritual ways. His goal is to steal a divine soul. This means picking someone who is a descendant of a God. Doesn't matter which God but the descendant with the strongest bloodline is going to have more power and be closer to the divine or more divine. That is why he was choosing between the two. You are not sure if she is a Bhaalspawn but I'm pretty sure John is very informed and did his research.

    Personally, I hated that they brought back Duke Silvershield. It hurts the impact of the original game and the resurrection thing is very gamey. I don't like seeing it written into a story. I think they could have made Ski a celebrity type that wanted to prove to people that she could be a soldier. If the word going around was that you killed her and you were a child of Bhaal it would have turned the public into an outraged, irate mob. Then the Dukes could side with you and decide to skoot you out of the city before the public tore you apart. It would have worked out without bringing back Duke Silvershield or having this soul taker thing that never comes to any conclusion.


    The game is good regardless. My opinion.

    QuartzAerakarO_Bruce
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 1,030
    ThacoBell said:

    @Tarnfara The purpose of the Crusade is meant to be a mystery in the begining. The only things anyone knows about is that the people that make up the army are calling it a Crusade, and that it is lead by a "shining lady". The main plot is finding out what its purpose is, and to stop it.

    This is the part of SOD's story that bothers me the most, really. If this Crusade is so mysterious and it's goals unknown, and yet they are marching through lands like an army and confiscating goods, why would anyone consider them "good" at all or swear devotion to them in numbers like that, the whole thing just doesn't work for me really. Just feel too obviously like it's supposed to arouse interest but for me it just left me with no compelling reason to do anything. Other than, of course, the obligatory "well they assaulted/kidnapped your sis/murdered your dad anyway, so even if you have no other reason, go get em tiger!".

    Quartz
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 3,353
    Dunno if anyone cares, but there's another older thread I made a long time ago with a lot of discussion on the story and the actions of the crusaders/caelar.
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/64078/sod-story-discussion#latest

    JuliusBorisovThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,695
    @WarChiefZeke No one is assuming they are good. When the Crusade rolls into town you either join, and torch your village, or don't join, and become homeless as your village is torched.
    The Crusade is also lead by an Argent, a member of one of the noblest Paladin orders, as well as an Aasimar. She acts as a reverse of charname much the same way Sarevok did. While people assume you are evil based solely on your heritage, and Sarevok was able to become something of a hero in the eyes of the people despite actually being evil. Caelar's heritage is such that those who know of her, assume she MUST have a good reason, after all, Paladins and especially Aasimar's HAVE to be good right? And remember, the dukes send you to stop the crusade, not help it.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,097
    yep. now you don't need to head canon why the canon party is with you at the start of 2 and play whatever party you want in bg1 and sod.

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