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  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,501
    edited January 29
    @OlvynChuru A very interesting experiment! Seems like Hogarl is the champion. I never actually finished the Black Pits. This is now making me curious about it.

    lolien
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 902
    Hogarl is cheating, though. He is clearly not wearing a helmet, but is immune to critical hits. More seriously speaking, I wonder about the reproducibility. It is likely that there would be some variation in the outcome. Remember the earliest versions of BG, where Gorion sometimes won against Sarevok?

    lolien
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,313
    Remember the earliest versions of BG, where Gorion sometimes won against Sarevok?

    What would happen after that? Or would it break and freeze the cutscene?

  • GundanRTOGundanRTO Member Posts: 26
    * Aerie's base strength allows her to equip the Large Shield +2 (Min Strength 4) that can be bought in Waukeen's Promenade,  but *not* the Medium Shield +2 or Large Shield +1. 

    * Symbol: Stun is party friendly in IWD, but is listed as being not party friendly in BG:2. Horrid Wilting is not Party Friendly in IWD, but is listed as being party friendly in BG2. 

    Wise_GrimwaldStummvonBordwehr
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,049
    Thels said:
    Remember the earliest versions of BG, where Gorion sometimes won against Sarevok?

    What would happen after that? Or would it break and freeze the cutscene?
      The game would softlock (stuck in the cutscene) and would need to be restarted.

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 902
    dunbar said:
    Mordy's Sword doesn't count as a Summoned Creature which means that you can have more than one active at the same time (up to 5 in fact when I tested it) and you can also summon a planetar/deva (or any other summons for that matter) at the same time (a planetar attacking from behind Mordy's Sword works well against Draconis for example).

    I am not sure what you saying here? With the exception of HLA creatures (like Planetars and Deva), you can have up to five summons regardless of type. E.g. up to five Skeleton Warriors. So what is special about the Sword here? The up to 5 seems to be the standard behaviour.

    semiticgodThacoBelllolien
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 496
    Exactly, Mordy’s Sword is a summoned creature, and Death Spell/Fog will instakill them.

    Montresor_SP
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,252
    I think that he is saying that you can have 5 summoned creatures PLUS the swords. @dunbar can correct me if I am wrong.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,436

    Sorry for the confusion: You can have up to 5 Mordy's plus one summons of your choice. The advantage is that the Sword's act as a buffer between the target and the real damager (be it a Planetar or/and a fighter with GWW).

    Agreed that Death Fog can instakill the Swords but it won't do their target much good either so it will probably turn hostile on the caster of the Death Fog. You could also send a couple of hasted Swords to attack the enemy mage directly.

    Hope this makes sense, the 'preview' function seems to be a bit messed up.

    Wise_GrimwaldAerakar
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,131
    In the unmodded game, the total summon limit of 5, and the celestial summon limit is 1. That is, you can have 1 celestial at most, and 5 of any other type of critter. Thus, you can have a celestial and 4 Skeleton Warriors, 5 Skeleton Warriors, or 1 Skeleton Warrior, 1 ogrillon, 1 Sword Spider, 1 Mordenkainen's Sword, and 1 kobold. Cast any more summoning spells after that, and no new critters will appear, no matter what type they are.

    In order to get 6 or more summoned critters, you need to either (1) use the Project Image exploit, which I believe is closed in the most recent version of EE, (2) play Icewind Dale, where the summon limit is 6, (3) play the original BG, where there is no summon limit, or (4) install a mod that removes the summon limit.

    If you have 5 Mordenkainen's Swords and a celestial, for 6 critters total, you're either playing a modded game, using Project Image in an earlier version of the game, or witnessing a curious bug.

    Wise_GrimwaldAerakar
  • BubbBubb Member Posts: 640
    edited January 31
    If you have 5 Mordenkainen's Swords and a celestial, for 6 critters total, you're either playing a modded game, using Project Image in an earlier version of the game, or witnessing a curious bug.

    At least in the current BG2EE release, the celestial cap is functionally separate from the normal summoned creatures cap. You can have 5 normal summons and a celestial up at the same time:


    semiticgodThacoBellAerakarKedric
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,782
    edited January 31
    Might be because celestial are gated and not summoned. I am guessing that you can also gate other creatures and thereby circumvent the 'summoning' cap to have beyond 6 non-npc followers.

    Can you try to gate a pitfiend in addition to what you already have there (my setup is heavily modded so I cannot check)?

    Wise_Grimwald
  • GundanRTOGundanRTO Member Posts: 26
    edited January 31
    Chronicler said:

    Large Shield +1 makes sense. More heavily enchanted weapons and armor are usually lighter and have lower strength requirements.

    Medium Shield +2 is weird though.



    First time using the quote option. Apologies in advance if this looks weird or unreadable as a result.

    While medium shields of higher enchantment are indeed lighter, the strength requirement to use them remains a static 12 STR. In contrast, the STR requirement for the Large Shield +2 drops dramatically  from Strength 14 for Large Shield +1 to Str 4 for Large Shield +2.

    Now, I understand the reason for this decrease lies in the in-game description, which states that a permanent Lightness spell has been cast on the shield. But given that the Large Shield +2 is 4lbs, and the Medium Shield +2 is only one pound more, it seems kind of incongruous that a character with average STR can't wield it. 

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 825
    Raduziel said:
    Weapons are not only about weight, but balance and grip. Try to manouver a 3m² styrofoam plate. You'll barely feel the weight, but you will need both hands.

    Sure, but I feel like you're underselling the "Level 30 warrior" part of the equation. Drizzt himself is only level 16ish. Level 30 warriors training probably overcomes a lot of obstacles in the way of nontraditional martial combat.


    Wise_Grimwald
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,399


    Raduziel said:

    Weapons are not only about weight, but balance and grip.

    Try to manouver a 3m² styrofoam plate. You'll barely feel the weight, but you will need both hands.


    Sure, but I feel like you're underselling the "Level 30 warrior" part of the equation. Drizzt himself is only level 16ish. Level 30 warriors training probably overcomes a lot of obstacles in the way of nontraditional martial combat.




    So if you grandmaster in styrofoam you should be able to more effectively wield it with one hand? I can buy that I guess...

    Wise_Grimwald
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,131
    There was a thread I think on reddit recently that questioned the very idea of Two-Handed Weapons. At the end of the game you may be a level 30+ warrior with a strength score of 25. You can carry over a thousand pounds, but a 7 pound sword still needs two hands to wield effectively.
    Imagine being a level 30 warrior that can carry 1,000 pounds, and then some random commoner points out that you've been using swords wrong for the past 20 levels.

    AerakarThacoBellWise_GrimwaldPokota
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,310
    BillyYank said:
    Balrog99 said:
    Raduziel said:
    Weapons are not only about weight, but balance and grip. Try to manouver a 3m² styrofoam plate. You'll barely feel the weight, but you will need both hands.

    Sure, but I feel like you're underselling the "Level 30 warrior" part of the equation. Drizzt himself is only level 16ish. Level 30 warriors training probably overcomes a lot of obstacles in the way of nontraditional martial combat.


    So if you grandmaster in styrofoam you should be able to more effectively wield it with one hand? I can buy that I guess...
    I've seen people who've grandmastered in pizza dough keep a disk of it spinning on one finger.
    Are we discussing divine powers in this thread? :)

    Wise_Grimwald
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 653
    edited February 2
    mlnevese said:


    BillyYank said:


    Balrog99 said:


    Raduziel said:

    Weapons are not only about weight, but balance and grip.

    Try to manouver a 3m² styrofoam plate. You'll barely feel the weight, but you will need both hands.


    Sure, but I feel like you're underselling the "Level 30 warrior" part of the equation. Drizzt himself is only level 16ish. Level 30 warriors training probably overcomes a lot of obstacles in the way of nontraditional martial combat.


    So if you grandmaster in styrofoam you should be able to more effectively wield it with one hand? I can buy that I guess...

    I've seen people who've grandmastered in pizza dough keep a disk of it spinning on one finger.

    Are we discussing divine powers in this thread? :)

    Yes we are. Pizza is divine.

    I also get the notion that the epic figthers are getting the short hand of the stick. Mages get to control time and loads of other stuff. Fighters gets what? A thaco boost? No spill over effect from their extensive training with weapons?

    Off course HLA levels this out some what. Put a gww dont do much when your stunned or the mage uses some clever shielding (mantle, absolute immunity or a pfmw). Imho the fighters could be better treated in their epic level - with more feats for using more weapons in epic ways

    Wise_Grimwald
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 902
    I like the idea of fighters still being people without special powers, who are very well-trained and have high strength.

    I don't buy the idea that you can learn to effectively dual-wield weapons designed to be used with two-hands, or at least not that with the same extraordinary amount of training you would not be much more effective with a traditional style.

    Finally, and let me make clear that this is just my personal opinion, I hate the asthetics of it, and don't want it anywhere near my RPGs. Even if using it is an choice, you will tend to encounter NPCs using the style or (in multiplayer) other players. I am not even a fan of how wide-spread dual-wielding of normal 1h long sword/scimitar style weapons has become.

    ThacoBellWise_Grimwald
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 653
    I would agree that dual wielding is poorly integrated. Mods like scales of balance implemments the fighting style more realistic.

    But two handed fighting is a poorly integrated as well. Take for instance spears. They are twohanded. But history has shown several efficient armies would had warriors who could use a spear and a shield at the same time (the greek phalanx, the roman army and the zulu army - just to mention a few).

    All these warriors in real armies wielded non magical gear with mundane strenght. In a fantasy setting I can live with a few feats that gives the epic warrior with godly strenght something extra. Is realistic? No. But the forgotten realms seems to be full of that at the present.

    Imo the power curve of the mage took a bad turn when ToB came around. You would hit the 3 million xp in chapter 4-5, and in chapter 6 waltz in to Ribalds and buy the time stop and shapechange scroll... for your warrior you could buy the war blade....

    ThacoBellWise_GrimwaldChronicler
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,782
    I liked the igi learn through use mod. You had to use a weapon to get better at it. It did not support the exotic combinations you mention though.

    StummvonBordwehrWise_Grimwald
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,455
    edited February 2

    I would agree that dual wielding is poorly integrated. Mods like scales of balance implemments the fighting style more realistic.

    But two handed fighting is a poorly integrated as well. Take for instance spears. They are twohanded. But history has shown several efficient armies would had warriors who could use a spear and a shield at the same time (the greek phalanx, the roman army and the zulu army - just to mention a few).

    All these warriors in real armies wielded non magical gear with mundane strenght. In a fantasy setting I can live with a few feats that gives the epic warrior with godly strenght something extra. Is realistic? No. But the forgotten realms seems to be full of that at the present.

    Imo the power curve of the mage took a bad turn when ToB came around. You would hit the 3 million xp in chapter 4-5, and in chapter 6 waltz in to Ribalds and buy the time stop and shapechange scroll... for your warrior you could buy the war blade....

    BG has a very poor scroll management, IMHO.

    Scrolls should be obtainable from the loot of powerful foes (Kangaxx, Firkraag, Twisted Rune) and, weaker ones like Friends and Identify, from very specific merchants or common-wizard-enemies.

    Some mid tier ones could be found in hard to access places in the map or hidden places (like the wand of frost in BG1).

    Gamebreaking scrolls, like Time Stop, should be one-time only and obtained after some hard quest (like the Planar Sphere).

    I also think that, except for Identify, there should be no more than 3 copies of any scroll.

    I hate how BG manages loot in general, but when it comes to scrolls the scenario is way worst.

    OlvynChuruWise_GrimwaldStummvonBordwehr
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,455
    It would also mean that failing to learn a spell could leave you unable to learn the spell for the rest of the game.
    Frankly, it's pretty lame to get an amazing scroll and then completely lose it because you had a 15% chance of failing to scribe it. Imagine a warrior getting a +5 katana and then it immediately shatters in his hands... because of luck. You can say that you can always use a couple Potions of Genius to prevent that from happening, or use reloads, or reduce the game difficulty so it doesn't happen, but that's the thing--it's not a good game mechanic if the only good thing about it is when it doesn't happen. Enemy mages don't have to deal with scribing failure.

    The problem with limiting spell scrolls is that there are only so many good spells in the game, but the same doesn't hold for fighters: there's at least one truly spectacular weapon of every single type in BG2, so warriors are never going to be short on weapons. You can say that there should only be one Wish scroll (for example) because there's only one Celestial Fury, but a warrior has plenty of strong alternatives to Celestial Fury, whereas there's no level 9 spell scroll that's as powerful as Wish.

    A party of 6 fighters will never be short of good weapons, but a party of mages can easily find itself short of scrolls, even in BG2.
    Losing is part of the game. Bad things happen. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Really want that spell? Save it for after a Potion of Genius. The risk is part of the fun in an RPG (again, IMHO).

    And I think that @semiticgod is having a misconception of what a scroll is. It should not be something to manage as "short of", they should be valorized and not treated as, IDK, potions - something that is way more mundane. In AD&D it is a little pain to write a scroll and those are very important to its writer. Definitely not something to be found in a random merchant, especially if it is something above the second level.

    Knowledge is power, wizards know that and they are not willing to share and help other wizards to become powerful - at least not powerful enough to steal their grimoire.

    The weapons a fighter own should be compared to the spells the wizard know. And let's think in perspective: as a wizard advanced in level he/she can do wonderful things; a fighter just hit more times and miss less often.

    I may be biased because I think of BG/BG2/IWD as an RPG-simulator, not a mere videogame and everything that makes the game step away from the PnP give me the creeps (look at what I did with Deities of Faerûn just to make the game look closer to PnP for at least one class!), but in tabletop is quite common for a wizard to not be able to learn a spell. Period. And they have to deal with it and be creative and smart (there's a reason why Intelligence is the main attribute for the class).

    StummvonBordwehr
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