Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Baldur's Gate meets Heroes of Might and Magic 3

1678911

Comments

  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited March 2018
    Keep in mind that I never developed this map with multiplayer in mind.

    The starting locations are VERY different for multiplayer.

    Normal multiplayer maps have similar starting locations and tournament maps are even symmetric in their design.

    I can only guess that good starting positions for multiplayer are: Dungeon, Undead and Fortress.

    There are all very remote. Although Tan can actually threaten the Dungeon starter position once in a while.
    I think the halflings of Gullykin can give the Dungeon faction quite a boost in the early game. I had intended that though. I like the thought that Gullykin could play an important role in the fight for the Sword Coast.

    With Fortress you can explore the sea and thanks to the whirlpools you can attack very fast strategically important places all over the Sword Coast. Oh boy and if you happen to have Voy or Sylvia as a hero...!

    And with Undead you should be able to raise a huge army of skeletons soon. You can farm all the peasants from the world above and bring them to your skeleton transformer...

    TressetlolienJuliusBorisov
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,760
    edited March 2018
    Well, so far we have played till the first week of the second month. up to ~10 lvl for the heroes. Too early to estimate how it will end.

    Yes, the blue (Tower, Tresset) started very slowly, but the orange (Dungeon, I) had to deal with constant attacks of the green (Rampart, AI) (it still hasn't ended, actually) + attacks of the purple (Stronghold, AI) - and in the process meant all the orange army was lost. I literally have no more than 1 week of creatures right now.

    AI actually has been playing almost brilliantly - even at 100%. The main hero of the green has ~250 mana, so you can easily imagine how much damage he can inflict in fights. For comparison, my heroes don't have more than 70 at this stage.

    I also have to say that Solmyr (from the tavern) looks scary, with 11 (!) in Power. I usually prefer to start with Might heroes (for a quick start agains neutral stacks), but they may get weaker with time if compared to heroes like Solmyr. Yes, I've managed to hire Deemer, but he's trailing a lot.

    Again, this is the difference of SinglePlayer vs MultiPlayer - I can play no problem with Might characters against AI, using mistakes in AI world map tactics, but I can't do that against another Player.

    I hardly can imagine a balanced high level fight between Solmyr and Shakti (my starting hero).

    Tower is usually one of the most difficult towns to play as in MP, but the longer the game goes the more powerful it becomes. This map is huuuge, so with time I predict Solmyr will wrack things ups.

    The fact we don't intend to rush killing each other and first focus on AI adds to the Tower's power, I think. It would be a different game if the only aim was to rush to the human opponent and finish him. I think we also want to explore the map and maybe find the Grail.

    I understand this map is not designed for MP, but - man - playing it in MP is so fun!

    And I propose as soon as we finish to restart with new factions - so that any player who suffers a defeat could choose a more optimal town for this map (using knowledge of the map).

    I'll share screenshots which I make from time to time when we finish.

    One addition - for some reason, tavern gossip don't work or work inconsistantly. Tresset has been seeing strange symbols in the gossip instead of letters, while I have stopped to get any gossip at all in recent weeks.

    Grond0ShandyrAedanlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited March 2018


    Yes, the blue (Tower, Tresset) started very slowly, but the orange (Dungeon, I) had to deal with constant attacks of the green (Rampart, AI) (it still hasn't ended, actually) + attacks of the purple (Stronghold, AI) - and in the process meant all the orange army was lost. I literally have no more than 1 week of creatures right now.

    Hmm, oh right. I hadn't thought of green and that damn portal exit hehe.
    I love that portal though and I love that it's a one way portal.

    Candlekeep and the Shadow Enclave are relatively close to each other. But when you play one of those factions and the AI plays the other one then the AI sends their heroes through the portal and they are not your problem anymore.

    If the portal wasn't there, or if it was two-way, then green player could and would harass @Tresset instead.


    One addition - for some reason, tavern gossip don't work or work inconsistantly. Tresset has been seeing strange symbols in the gossip instead of letters, while I have stopped to get any gossip at all in recent weeks.

    Have you ever noticed that when playing the game in singleplayer? Also if it happens again could you make a screenshot? I'm especially interested in the "strange symbols".

    @Tresset oh by the way, for the longest time I had never truly liked the Tower Faction. It felt far too weak in the beginning and it would take far too long to get Titans. I was making a huge mistake in the way I played it.

    Never have your master genie in one stack only. If you have 3 or 4 stacks of master genie then you can cast 3 respectively 4 additional spells. And usually I cast those spells on a single Naga Queen stack. So that would be my advise at least: several Master Genie stacks + Naga Queen. That's deadly.

    You can boost that one Naga Queen stack so insanely that way...

    You may very well know that already. As I said, for the longest time, I hadn't known.

    JuliusBorisovGrond0lolien
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,068
    Shandaxx said:


    One addition - for some reason, tavern gossip don't work or work inconsistantly. Tresset has been seeing strange symbols in the gossip instead of letters, while I have stopped to get any gossip at all in recent weeks.

    Have you ever noticed that when playing the game in singleplayer? Also if it happens again could you make a screenshot? I'm especially interested in the "strange symbols".
    image
    I kinda thought this may have happened because of some language translation issues or something along those lines.

    JuliusBorisovShandyr
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    But the tavern rumors are all in English.

    Also I have never seen this occur in singleplayer. But why and how would the tavern rumors be affected by multiplayer?

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,760
    So we have continued a bit, till ~ the start of the 3rd month. @Tresset now had a chance to watch my heroes chasing enemies in circles wasting time and troops.

    Basically the green continues to be a big problem and now they are joined by the red (Necropolis, AI) - and these armies mostly target Larswood.

    I don't know what level Solmyr has but he got 2 relic artifacts while I still haven't managed to get one. My highest hero is of the 15th level.

    I have found the Recanter's Cloak (which prevents casting level 3 or higher spells during combat) but I'm undecided if it's fair to use this item. Imagine feelings of a player whose main character is a wizard who relies on magic. Never liked this item in MP. Orb of Inhibition is even worse. It would be balanced if other items nerfed brute force.

    lolienShandyr
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,068
    We quit playing this one tonight. I got whupped by Green. I was honestly struggling anyway, so it isn't surprising.

    lolienShandyrJuliusBorisov
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263


    I have found the Recanter's Cloak (which prevents casting level 3 or higher spells during combat) but I'm undecided if it's fair to use this item. Imagine feelings of a player whose main character is a wizard who relies on magic. Never liked this item in MP. Orb of Inhibition is even worse. It would be balanced if other items nerfed brute force.

    Yeah I think it's unfair to use those items against human players in multiplayer.
    However, you could agree on only using them against the AI.

    They cripple magic heroes so badly that most people don't take magic heroes in multiplayer.

    If the AI has these items, at least you can scout the enemy heroes with a weak hero and then you know if the AI hero has those artifacts. But humans can hide the artifacts in the backpack and only switch them on directly before battle.
    Tresset said:

    We quit playing this one tonight. I got whupped by Green. I was honestly struggling anyway, so it isn't surprising.

    Normally I'd like to join a new match but I've fallen sick. So if you'd like to try another multiplayer match in 1 to 2 weeks, let me know :)

    I tried a match with tan(brown i.e. the bandits) in singleplayer and that was too hard. The Bandits have a huge disadvantage on the map. They will basically be attacked from all sides.

    From South the Dungeon Overlords will come from West the Undead will eventually come and additionally Green and Blue will come from the portal.

    I think the bandits are the hardest starting faction.

    JuliusBorisov
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Oh yeah, btw, which difficulty setting did you play on?

    JuliusBorisov
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,068
    We were playing on Knight difficulty.

    ShandyrJuliusBorisovlolien
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,760
    @Shandaxx I'm all for you joining us when you can. Get well. A new match on that map is up to @Tresset as obviously it's not easy to accept what happened yesterday.
    Basically, it was AI that killed the Blue, not another player.

    Shandyr
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Tresset said:

    We were playing on Knight difficulty.

    But "Knight" difficulty is the "normal" difficulty right?

    Hmm. Okay. I usually test the map on impossible in singleplayer. And for the bandits it's definitely too hard then. Rampart however is possible on "impossible".

    Okay I'm testing now the Tower Faction on "hard" (i.e. "rook" difficulty).

    Did you guys help each other out resource wise? Did you trade with each other?
    I mean even though you are enemies formally, I understood it that way that you were going after the AI first.

    I would need some test matches from other people (or more from you). But if the map is generally too hard then I'd have to adjust the difficulty. After all the map should be fun and not lead to frustration ;)

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,068
    Julius wasn't helping me at all. Not only did we not trade with each other, he also killed any scouts of mine he saw and was able to catch, even if they were just harmless 1 imp people who were only looking for obelisks. About all we did was tell each other how we were doing and what we were doing.

    Honestly, I have never really played a non-allies map with other humans, so this is kind of a new thing for me.

    My main downfall, I think, was a lack of any way to get ore. I had no mines anywhere remotely nearby and everything I wanted to build needed ore. I eventually got enough to build some stuff just by trading my surplus gems and wood in the market at a terrible rate, but it was super slow. I get that you want it to be a challenge and resource poor map, but maybe try to space the mines better, or at least put wood and ore mines within reach of everyone. Another thing you could do is put some trading post adventure objects on the map in the especially resource poor areas. Having access to a better trading rate would have helped me IMMENSELY. Practically the whole time I was wishing the tavern you put in for Winthrop's Inn was a trading post instead. That would have given me a fighting chance, I think.

    ShandyrJuliusBorisovlolien
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,760
    edited March 2018
    Huh, I didn't even think about helping with resources. I'm not against the idea, it just didn't come to me completely. I guess I've just got too used to the "surviving based on what I have" mindset.

    When we restart (hopefully with @Shandaxx ) I plan to start as the Blue to see how things go myself. Even it will mean I won't win, it's completely ok.

    As for killing scouts - of course I would do that. It's kind of normal not to let the opponent see your town(s).

    @Tresset's suggestions above sound reasonable.

    TressetShandyr
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,068
    @Shandaxx I would be all for having you join us after we finish our current game! Would you like to play regular Heroes 3 or HotA? We are currently doing regular Heroes 3, but I have been itching to try HotA with Julius. The only problem is he is not as familiar with it as we are.

    JuliusBorisovShandyr
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Okay, the lack of ore is part of the scenario.
    Because the Sword Coast is having an iron ore crisis ;)

    So I want that to be a problem. However, I'm aware that the different factions rely differently heavily upon ore. The Tower Town does need quite a lot of ore whereas the Rampart needs very little.

    That's why I switched on the Workshop and the Parapet in the Tower Town by default. They are always already built from the very beginning. Also, there are two windmills and two mystical gardens in the area from Candlekeep to Beregost.

    As I said I have started a singleplayer scenario now with the Tower Faction. And yes, I'm required to trade a lot of other resources for ore. Even at a very bad rate because I only have 1 marketplace.
    Still it is possible.

    Also there is a trading post in Beregost which is not too far away.

    All in all it should be possible with the Tower Faction though it's not easy of course.
    However, the feedback is noted and I will keep it in mind. Especially if more people feel the same way.

    Maybe you'd like to try out the Fortress Faction next? The starting position of the Gnoll faction is very remote. And Fortress requires less ore than Tower as it relies more on wood.

    I would love to join you in multiplayer but first I need to get healthy again.
    I would like to try my map out in multiplayer and for that I'd prefer Homm3 SoD. I didn't make the map with HotA in mind.

    JuliusBorisovTresset
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Have a look at this. This is my Solmyr at Month 3, Week 2, Day 7. It's just a few days after I went into Cloakwood and conquered Shadow Enclave.

    image

    And this was the battle for Shadow Enclave:

    image

    Grond0JuliusBorisovlolien
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 4,216
    I play the odd bit of MP Heroes 3 and would be happy to join a game if others are interested. I haven't played this map since @JuliusBorisov and I were doing speed runs a while back, but I'm used to losing anyway so that's not a problem :D.

    JuliusBorisovlolienShandyr
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,760
    Yes, losing happens here and there constantly. It's fine!
    Now it's becoming to look like a fun future adventure, with @Grond0 also willing to join!
    Your screenshots, @Shandaxx, illustrate that you've been able to successfully go out of the "starting zone" and get all those resources - something @Tresset had had a problem with, apparently.

    And

    Grond0lolienShandyr
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,760
    edited March 2018
    Tresset and I have played the default map called Reclamation (Tresset - the Orange and I - the Purple). And it has shown even original developers didn't always think about balance. Long story short, only the Orange has 2 (two!) dwellings of the 7th level 1-2 turns away from their capital on that map. All other starting positions (and this map is for 7 players) don't provide even one such dwelling.

    It gives quite a perspective on the Fight for the Sword Coast map.

    I still support Tresset's suggestions above about the Blue, and looking forward to give it a try in our MP game.

    Btw, for balanced MP games we can use Maps or Random Template Maps available for download on http://www.heroes-iii.com/

    lolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    We already had that discussion about balance in this very thread once.

    Balance is important for multiplayer games to assure everyone has similar starting conditions, so that everyone has around the same chance of winning.

    But if you design every map with multiplayer in mind then you will also miss out another experience.

    If I always wanted every map to be balanced, then I could never make a map where the different starting positions are supposed to be different in difficulty.

    This map is a singleplayer map and was designed in that way that the different starting position pose different challenges in difficulty.

    This is why I take any feedback that aims to balance the map with a grain of salt to a certain degree.

    It's a singleplayer map. And in this singleplayer map the starting positions are supposed to be different in difficulty. Just because you can play this map in multiplayer technically, doesn't mean that this map is a multiplayer map.

    And I want to be honest here, this very discussion is the reason why I dislike making multiplayer maps.
    As a map creator, I would always have to take into consideration that everything was balanced out equally.

  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited March 2018
    Now nevertheless I don't want any starting position to be literally impossible, even on the difficulty setting with the same name, "impossible".

    At the moment I think the bandit camp starting position is a problem and far too hard even against the AI.

    From my games, and I usually play on impossible, I have never had problems with the Tower Faction or the Rampart Faction.

    But I will continue to test of course. And I appreciate everyone else who's testing my map.

    In my latest game I played the Tower Faction with difficulty "Rook" and it was no problem at all. For my liking it was a bit too easy even. But I am the map creator, I know the map and its mechanisms by heart. So that does play a role too of course.

    Remember how you may have struggled the first times you played the map?

    lolien
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,760
    Sure thing! I tried to say that different starting conditions are completely ok.
    How are you, btw? Getting any better?

    Shandyrlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    No, I'm getting worse, it may take a while.

    I thought I was getting better but today it was worse. The cold is "wandering" in my body. It started in the throat and went to the bronchi. It's clear in those areas now, but now my sinuses are affected.

    The cold is wandering from one location to another.

    Last year it was even worse. For one and a half month a cold was wandering between bronchi, sinuses, throat and my ears (with an ear infection each time), each time affecting a new area of my body while the other areas had recovered already.

    It will still take a while but hopefully not as long as the last time.

    JuliusBorisovlolienGrond0
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,068
    edited March 2018
    I just thought I should mention that the issue I was having (and am still having) with the tavern rumors has nothing to do with this scenario. The problem seems to be that, for some unknown reason, when I play with Julius, my tavern rumors appear in Russian rather than English. Kind of an unfair advantage for him since he can read both Russian and English, but it is no big deal. Tavern rumors are but a small part of the game (and I still seem to be beating him quite regularly).

    Grond0lolienShandyr
  • RVNSRVNS Member Posts: 278
    I am ready to try this map as well. Looks super fun! might and magic three is probably in my top five favorite games. Now to figure out which starting town I want to play.

    Shandyr
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 702
    Shandaxx said:

    No, I'm getting worse, it may take a while.

    I thought I was getting better but today it was worse. The cold is "wandering" in my body. It started in the throat and went to the bronchi. It's clear in those areas now, but now my sinuses are affected.

    The cold is wandering from one location to another.

    Last year it was even worse. For one and a half month a cold was wandering between bronchi, sinuses, throat and my ears (with an ear infection each time), each time affecting a new area of my body while the other areas had recovered already.

    It will still take a while but hopefully not as long as the last time.

    This is a bit off-topic, but if you can get your hands on it, try Emser salt (Ems mineral salt). It is by no means a cure-it-all, but can make the symptoms of a bacterial cold milder, and has little risk of side effects. (it's basically mineral salts from a mineral spring site in Germany)

    lolienShandyr
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Ah well let's see, why not start another match on the Sword Coast? :)

    There's this handsome, young, sexy new druid hero I'd like to try out...
    Isn't he adorable? :heart:

    image

    image

    AedanmlneveseThacoBelllolien
Sign In or Register to comment.