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Baldur's Gate meets Heroes of Might and Magic 3

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Comments

  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    AHHHHHHHHHH

    NOOOOO!!!

    Damn... I forgot to switch them back on!

    You remember the scholar thing? I tested around with them!!! And for that I needed to switch of all but a few spells. To see if they would teach spells that I disabled.

    But they don't. They only teach spells that are enabled.

    Sorry, my mistake!

    Will send you the correct version of the map in the morning!

    JuliusBorisovGrond0CrevsDaaklolien
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,416
    Once more I got a decent start and this time managed to carry that on. To encourage me to concentrate and take more care this time I was writing a brief summary of progress every week and using that to re-evaluate strategy. I still made a number of mistakes, but none of them were hugely costly. I also benefited in the later game from chasing down Luna to get her Angel Wings. That allowed me to fully explore and flag the map in the way I like, while still finishing in a decent time.

    That's enough heroes 3 for me for a while now, but I'd just like to say thanks again to Shandyr for all the hard work that's gone into providing me with entertainment <3. If there's anything I can do in return then please do let me know.

    Incidentally I think you asked a while ago about potential locations on the Sword Coast. You've got Durlag's Tower there, so you might want to think about adding in the other additional locations from TotSC. I would have thought Ice Island could easily be set in the underground area - still plenty of space there. Potentially the same could be done with Balduran's Isle - a small islet in the ocean with a transporter could take you into a sequence of small areas underground (mimicking progress up through the wrecked ship).

    ShandyrlolienCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited February 2017
    Grond0 said:

    I would have thought Ice Island could easily be set in the underground area - still plenty of space there. Potentially the same could be done with Balduran's Isle - a small islet in the ocean with a transporter could take you into a sequence of small areas underground (mimicking progress up through the wrecked ship).

    Hey congratulations on your record!! Okay best record for this map stands at 438! Well done!
    And thank you for testing my map and providing feedback.

    I am very reluctant to place ice island and werewolf island underground. Personally it would break my immersion because I just know that both locations are just too far away geographically...

    But maybe I could incorporate a little nice reference to them.

    You can place a message in a bottle in HoMM3 in the oceans.
    Maybe one such bottle was from Werewolf island and another from ice island ;)
    Or something like that.


    Grond0CrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,416
    Shandyr said:

    I am very reluctant to place ice island and werewolf island underground. Personally it would break my immersion because I just know that both locations are just too far away geographically...

    That's fine. I wasn't thinking of them as being integrated with other areas in the sense of having multiple travel routes though. In the game ice island can only be reached via teleport and assuming that was done the location on the heroes map didn't seem crucial to me - personally I could easily imagine the map as showing widely separated territories of the same political entity by using inserts.

    lolienShandyrCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Grond0 said:

    Shandyr said:

    I am very reluctant to place ice island and werewolf island underground. Personally it would break my immersion because I just know that both locations are just too far away geographically...

    That's fine. I wasn't thinking of them as being integrated with other areas in the sense of having multiple travel routes though. In the game ice island can only be reached via teleport and assuming that was done the location on the heroes map didn't seem crucial to me - personally I could easily imagine the map as showing widely separated territories of the same political entity by using inserts.
    It would be possible, absolutely. I'm still reluctant.

    I actually take great care to place the larger areas geographically correctly.

    Of course only the larger areas and only roughly. For example I put Durlag's Tower to what I think is a more correct place (actually the really correct place of Durlag's Tower would be outside of the map I think). And I corrected the place of Ulgoth's Beard too.

    So I really would dislike to introduce something to my map which could be interpreted as geographically false.

    In the end I do understand your line of thinking, so I'd say it's a matter of opinion and taste.

    But as an aside note, this is the reason why I would have HUGE problems ever doing such a map for Baldur's Gate 2. Because that map has been so messed up from the original locations that I would really have a hard time.

    You can read more about that here:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/60786/bg2-map-vs-realms-map

    I would want to stick to geographically correct locations as described in official Realms lore. And if I did that for Baldur's Gate 2 no one would recognize that map.

    But recognizing the map is the huge appeal of the map in the first place. That is what takes you back and let's you remember.

    JuliusBorisovlolienGrond0CrevsDaak
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,110
    edited February 2017
    I've managed to score 438, just as @Grond0. This is after that second Fortress start. But I managed to complete it in 133 days, while @Grond0 spent 136 days. I didn't use Angel Wings, only several heroes with maximum logistics.

    So I guess we have a new record ;) Sorry, Grond0.







    Feedback:

    The map has become much better (as if it hadn't been awesome), with Castle nerfed. This was my main concern when I first played this map.

    Now my army consisted of a mix between Tower, Stronghold and Castle. My another hero used Fortress army.

    My second concern when I first played this map was that I didn't see any sense in exploring the south-eastern part of the map. This is also fixed in the latest version. @Shandyr made an excellent choice of adding a "Dark Moon" area, with an access to it granted in the Baldur's Gate city (just as in the Rasaad's BG questline).

    But my other two notes still stand ;)

    I missed fractions not available on this map - Inferno and Elementals. When the map is so big and so long to play, it's always fun to have more different creatures in different armies. I appreciate the demons' gate in the Ulgorth's Beard, but still.

    I would add obelisks to this map. I like to look for the Grail, I think it can be an additional factor for trying this or that attempt. When a map has 15-20 obelisks, it only makes it better.

    Maybe I like obelisks because of my love for Might and Magic VI-VIII games, where it was fun to explore maps and find obelisks.

    ShandyrlolienGrond0CrevsDaak
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited February 2017

    I missed fractions not available on this map - Inferno and Elementals. When the map is so big and so long to play, it's always fun to have more different creatures in different armies. I appreciate the demons' gate in the Ulgorth's Beard, but still.

    Hey hey, I already told you last time that there are Elementals! There is a Conflux town on that map and it has always been, from the very beginning! ;)

    Try finding it :tongue: but I promise you it's there! ;)

    My second concern when I first played this map was that I didn't see any sense in exploring the south-eastern part of the map. This is also fixed in the latest version. @Shandyr made an excellent choice of adding a "Dark Moon" area, with an access to it granted in the Baldur's Gate city (just as in the Rasaad's BG questline).

    Yes exactly, the black border gates are a reference to Rasaad's questline.
    There is an option to pass them by without the necessity to visit Baldur's Gate City, but you have to fight a tough fight.
    There are 3 entries to the Dark Moon area and two of them are guarded by black border gates.
    But I do not want to force the player to always visit Baldur's Gate first, that's why you can also try to fight your way inside the Dark Moon area.

    I would add obelisks to this map. I like to look for the Grail, I think it can be an additional factor for trying this or that attempt. When a map has 15-20 obelisks, it only makes it better.

    I think I will eventually add them, yes. Because @Grond0 gave me that idea that the Grail could be one of Balduran's long lost artifacts/treasures and I really like that.

    JuliusBorisovlolienCrevsDaak
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,416
    Shandyr said:

    Hey hey, I already told you last time that there are Elementals! There is a Conflux town on that map and it has always been, from the very beginning! ;)

    Try finding it :tongue: but I promise you it's there! ;)

    I guess the problem is that it's a neutral city. If you're trying to complete the map as quickly as JuliusBorisov then by the time you're in a position to acquire the city there's probably not enough time to build it up and use creatures from it in any meaningful way. I realise of course the appropriate answer to that is "well don't finish the map so fast then" :p.

    ShandyrJuliusBorisovCrevsDaaklolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Grond0 said:

    I realise of course the appropriate answer to that is "well don't finish the map so fast then" :p.

    Exactly :tongue:

    CrevsDaaklolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    HA!

    Now I know how I can lure @JuliusBorisov to the area with the Conflux Town! I will place an obelisk there!

    Mwuahahaha! >:)

    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaakGrond0lolien
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,416

    I've managed to score 438, just as @Grond0. This is after that second Fortress start. But I managed to complete it in 133 days, while @Grond0 spent 136 days. I didn't use Angel Wings, only several heroes with maximum logistics.

    So I guess we have a new record ;) Sorry, Grond0.

    I wasn't intending to play again immediately, but that just seemed like a challenge ;). This time I decided to try out the dungeon faction and struck lucky when Terek started ignoring terrain obstacles. Pursuing him aggressively I finally managed to trap him in a town and prevent him escaping from a third fight - netting me some beautiful angel wings. To speed things up this time I didn't fully explore the underground and also didn't fully upgrade all towns. The result of cutting those corners should give even @JuliusBorisov something to think about o:).

    JuliusBorisovlolienShandyrCrevsDaak
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,110
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    442 points in only 90 days? Map is too easy needs to be buffed!

    Grond0JuliusBorisovlolienCrevsDaak
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,416
    If you really wanted to make it more difficult you could get rid of those angel wings o:). In addition to flight and dimension door the other thing I think is often disabled in MP to make things a bit more difficult / even-handed is diplomacy. In my last run I picked that up pretty early and that makes it possible to advance using neutral stacks rather than having to wait to build up an army from your city.

    ShandyrJuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Oh, I see. The thing with diplomacy is this:

    I never use it but I let the AI use it because I love it when the enemy gets diplomacy while I refuse to use it. Because that can then be a really tough challenge.

    And I love those matches!

    That can be especially tough in the late game when the enemy can absorb huge stacks of level 7 monsters! BOY! I LOVE THAT! :smiley:

    If I disabled diplomacy I would take away a lot of fun for me from my own map.

    About the Angel Wings, I thought they would occur rarely enough, but it seems you guys find them pretty often, don't you? Hmm...

    JuliusBorisovlolienCrevsDaak
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,416
    I'm not actually suggesting you should disable diplomacy. I would leave it - like you I rarely use it in my games, but think it can be fun. I was commenting more that in the particular circumstances of a speed run (which most games won't be) having it makes things easier.

    Shandyr
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,110
    So, I've accepted the challenge and here's my result. Sorry, @Grond0 :)

    I've stared as Dungeon, and forced myself through everything. Knowing this map much better now, the first thing I did was getting Fortress base and thus covering about 1/2 of the map.

    Score 442, Days 83





    CrevsDaakGrond0Shandyrlolien
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,416
    I'm sure you're a better player than me @JuliusBorisov and I think I'm now getting into the territory of diminishing returns. However, if you still want a target you could aim for this one ;).

    ShandyrlolienJuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,110
    @Grond0 Ok, that was difficult. After several tries, I've managed to win the game in the same number of days (just see, first it were 77 days for me, then 76 days, then 75 days, and finally, 74 days). But the system strangely gave me only 442 points, not 444.




    Using the formula from here:
    Base Score = 200 - X + 25 (if you defeated all enemies) + 25 (if you got the grail)
    Where X = (days+10)/(Towns+5), rounded down
    Final Score = (Base Score)(Difficulty level map was played on)

    (200 - (74+10)/(16+5) + 25)*2 = 442

    Let's see how that could become 444: (200 - (74+10)/(20+5) + 25)*2 = 444. So, in order to get 444 in 74 days for this map, a player should get 20 towns. @Shandyr, could you confirm this map has at least 20 towns? Because from what I see the map has 18 towns (16 + Adoy's Enclave and + Dark Moon).

    18 towns mean (200 - (74+10)/(18+5) + 25)*2 = 442, which is not 444. So from what I see this map can't give 444 points for 74 days.

    ShandyrCrevsDaak
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,416

    @Grond0 Ok, that was difficult. After several tries, I've managed to win the game in the same number of days (just see, first it were 77 days for me, then 76 days, then 75 days, and finally, 74 days). But the system strangely gave me only 442 points, not 444.

    18 towns mean (200 - (74+10)/(18+5) + 25)*2 = 442, which is not 444. So from what I see this map can't give 444 points for 74 days.

    The formula you describe looks like it results in 444 points to me.
    84 / 23 = 3 (rounded down)
    200 - 3 + 25 = 222 x 2 = 444
    Did you definitely own all 18 towns? If you hadn't captured all the neutral towns that could explain why you only got 442.

    From your scoring it sounds like you've been working hard - impressive stuff. From my perspective, I don't regard the 74 days as a genuine score for me anyway. That used the same start as the previous game so I knew in advance what strategy to use :p. Pending any further challengers I think that makes you the leader for the moment ...

    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,110
    I didn't understand 84 / 23 would be 3 if rounded down, thank you, @Grond0.

    I'll try to replay from the last save.

    Grond0CrevsDaak
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Is there a resemblance between doppelgangers and gogs?

    image image

    Apart from the tail, I think gogs could pass as doppelgangers, don't you?

    JuliusBorisovmlneveseThacoBell
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,537
    How do you know gigs are real and not just doppelgangers pretending to be something else? :)

    JuliusBorisovShandyr
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,110
    mlnevese said:

    How do you know gigs are real and not just doppelgangers pretending to be something else? :)

    I know a gig is real when I hear one.

    Shandyrmlnevese
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    WORK IN PROGRESS! Enhanced Design of... @Anduin 's home island... Undercity!

    An old version of Undercity (in the north west)
    image


    New Undercity Enhanced Design! Work in Progress! Will add more interaction buildings on sea and of course monsters & loot!

    image

    @Anduin 's residence is back! He's got a pyramid on Undercity island. And he has quite a pleasant view from his home if he takes a look at the river.

    AnduinlolienJuliusBorisov
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited July 2017
    Now let's describe Undercity in terms of... @Anduin...

    image
    (graphic reminds me of an Advent calendar...)

    1) Anduin's center of power - his majestic, run-down, dilapidated castle!
    2) Anduin's dinner table (Altar of Sacrifice) - served every midnight 12 am ! Don't miss out I heard citizen of Baldur's Gate are very tasty!
    3) Want to take a nap? This is the right place, very calm by the riverside. Extra soft lining inside!
    4) Anduin's working place (magic school)
    5) Anduin's private residence
    6) Anduin's unrequited love
    7) Natural heating! Keeps the water around Undercity pleasantly warm! Serves also as garbage dump. Very handy!
    8) Anduin's summer residence. Want a vacation? Right on the beach!
    9) Mausoleum, Anduin's retreat. Sometimes you need a longer break and contemplate things. Alone.

    Damn, I'm getting more ideas... look to the east of Anduin's castle. There you'll find a cursed temple. The place where the citizen of Undercity pay homage to Anduin!

    AnduinlolienJuliusBorisov
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited July 2017
    Enhanced Design of the east part of the northern underground area (east of Undercity).

    Again, for comparison, old version:
    image


    New version! Work in progress!

    image

    Seriously if that doesn't make you want to take a ship and explore the sea I don't know what will =_=

    Also notice @Anduin 's watch tower in the west (lighthouse) warning him from incoming foes and just short to the north of it Anduin's sea fortress (freelancer's guild).

    Post edited by Shandyr on
    AnduinlolienGrond0JuliusBorisov
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,110
    New additions look superb! Nice ideas and I like the sea travelling will be rewarding.

    Shandyrlolien
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