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Baldur's Gate meets Heroes of Might and Magic 3

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Comments

  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited November 2014
    @bengoshi‌

    Sadly I never bothered with the original Might and Magic games :/
    I have only played the "Heroes of" spinn off series :/

    That said, I do not plan to make this a heavy roleplaying map anyway - I'm far too inexperienced for that.
    And I would need more features than the normal map editor of HoMM3 can offer.

    (As I already said in an earlier post I'd need the Wake of Gods add-on and its features)

    But for now I don't want to do that, so it'll be a simple "conquer everything" map with some
    hints to Baldur's Gate.

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Oh no, turned out I switched hovels with thatched huts, meaning Nashkel and Beregost are full of halfling dwellings now whereas Gullykin is full of human peasant dwellings

    lolienCrevsDaak
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,807
    edited November 2014
    @Shandyr, I love your ideas to make it into a playable map. You've simplified and solved a lot of the problems I was brainstorming about by allowing the player to choose a faction and play as characters other than Charname, including as a monster race if desired, and then doing just a straight up battle for resources and territory.

    I always liked the basic winner-takes-all maps better than the specialized roleplaying ones anyway. As more and more maps started to be created through all the versions of Homm, I think map-writers started over-doing all the special conditions a bit, trying to be fresh and original. Some of the roleplaying maps are so complicated in what you have to do to win, I don't have as much fun with them. You also lose out on a lot of the fun of exploration on those maps, since the mapmaker has to control the order of events very carefully.

    In your project, I think the most fun will come from starting out with different factions and doing the exploration. That is, exploring and finding all the familiar areas and Baldur's Gate Easter eggs will be the main fun part of it, especially since it's going to be such a huge map.

    Some ideas about resources: Resource scarcity is one of the main themes of Baldur's Gate. There should be rich mines of every resource type both at Nashkel (for the southern factions), and the Cloakwood Mines (for the northern factions). One of the strategic priorities would be to get control of one of those mining areas, which should be guarded by very strong monsters in order to mitigate the advantage of factions with geographical proximity, especially the Cloakwood druids.

    The one exception would be wood, which should be fairly plentiful, and would give a needed leg-up to the human faction. I would put a lot of mills and gem ponds and stuff like that around, and maybe there's an excuse to put more ore mines around than you'd really have available during Iron Crisis Sword Coast times. Unless maybe you wanted to make ore the hard-to-get resource.

    My ideas are just brainstorming - feel free to take any you want, and ignore any you want.

    For your two newest released preview pictures, I instantly recognized Beregost because of your use of the obelisk in the town center, and Mutamin's Garden, which took me a minute. First I noticed the desert to the south, then I noticed the ghoul. I was puzzling over why you placed the golems there for a second, then I realized that they must be petrified people. Finally, I saw the basilisks and the little leprechaun that must be Mutamin. The trouble was that the basilisks are almost the same color as the background grass, so they were hard to see on my monitor. Anyhow, great work!

    I hope you'll have time to keep working on this, because I'm starting to really want to play it. You should check out uploading it to Celestial Heavens, as well, if there are no copyright issues.

    EDIT: Oh, I hope it won't be too much trouble to go back and reset the hovels and huts to the correct factions? I'm sorry that happened to you. It sounds like an easy to make sort of mistake that will be a bit of a pain to have to undo.

    ShandyrlolienJuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,807
    edited November 2014
    @Shandyr, well, I think that the Baldur's Gate related Easter eggs, and the incorporated names and places will be what makes it fun for Baldur's Gate fans.

    I don't think you should worry about non-Baldur's Gate fans, since they are unlikely to care about or download your map.

    That only leaves you with making a balanced scenario that is fun for Baldur's Gate fans alone, and is winnable by any of the factions.

    I know that is an oversimplification, and is easier said than done.

    I still see the resources and the BG-dictated geographical placement of the factions as the biggest obstacle to making it all playable, after you've created the BG world map to your satisfaction. Did you have other balance or placement issues in mind?

    Does map creation require an ultimate artifact placement? If you can opt out of having to have one, maybe that would be good.

    I think you are off to a great start, and that your creativity is admirable and wonderful in bringing these two great things together (LOL - I am reminded of an old American commercial jingle for Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, an American candy confection that combines sweetened peanut-butter flavored filling with a milk chocolate daisy-shaped shell - "Two great tastes that go great together: Reese's Peanut Butter Cups!:).

    Words fail me in how I want to praise you for what you are doing here. I marvel at your creative energy. :)

    So, I think all that is needed for a good BG Homm map is that any of the factions you've set out has as equal as possible a chance to win the map. Homm is so rich and complex, that it can boggle the mind how many ways there are to do so.

    I'm not sure how to help with any more specific advice other than to go with your gut ("Trust you feelings, Luke!") and to not worry that much about what anyone will think about your finished project. You're doing this for you, after all.

    I think that the only thing I'd worry about in your place is that one of the factions you've expertly created might be unintentionally able to overwhelm all of the other factions - I think Sarevok's faction is the likely culprit here, so the main thing to prevent would be that players who choose Sarevok aren't guaranteed to win. And also the shadow druid players, since they have the most obvious access to one of the resource areas.

    Bottom line, Homm, just like real-life strategy, politics, and war, is a game of resources. All you have to do to create a good Homm map is to make sure that all factions on the map have some equal way to find and control resources. Again, I know that this is an oversimplification and easier said than done.

    So, I would conclude for this project, Homm gameplay>exact replication of BG. BG references and Easter eggs, as well as just the geography being true to BG, will carry it for BG fans. You need not worry about non-BG fans.

    ShandyrlolienJuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,761
    edited November 2014
    Confession: I've looked at that map of BG city again and again for 10 times already. I WANT to try it!

    - I like the Thieves Guild
    - I like the Elfsong tavern
    - I lke the Iron Throne building
    - I like the temple of Helm
    - I like the Ramazith's tower
    - I like the S eeker's hut
    - I like the H eadquarters of Flaming Fist
    - I like the A lora Hall
    - Yeah, I like Shandyr's idea

    ShandyrlolienBelgarathMTHCrevsDaak
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    bengoshi said:

    Confession: I've looked at that map of BG city again and again for 10 times already. I WANT to try it!

    - I like the Thieves Guild
    - I like the Elfsong tavern
    - I lke the Iron Throne building
    - I like the temple of Helm
    - I like the Ramazith's tower
    - I like the S eeker's hut
    - I like the H eadquarters of Flaming Fist
    - I like the A lora Hall
    - Yeah, I like Shandyr's idea

    Temple of Helm is actually not featured. At least I didn't have it in mind.
    But I think it should be open to everyone's interpretation anyway :)

    But you forgot the temple of the Bitch Queen :D
    Or "the Water Queen's House" to be more formal (and polite).

    Oh and the sanctuary to the north-west is supposed to be Entar Silvershield's estate...

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,064
    edited November 2014
    Shandyr, I was thinking that you can put some swordsmen for the Flaming Fist Guards and thieves for the Shadow Thieves!
    Really, your idea is amazing :)

    EDIT: I have another suggestion! I would put some road signs. You can see them in many BGEE areas. 3DO developers did that too with the map quoted by bengohsi (the Mandate of Heaven map).

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited November 2014
    Aedan said:

    I have another suggestion! I would put some road signs. You can see them in many BGEE areas. 3DO developers did that too with the map quoted by bengohsi (the Mandate of Heaven map).

    @Aedan
    Ah thanks that's a very good idea.

    Do you have some specific messages in mind for the road signs or should I place them where they are in the game with the same messages?

    lolien
  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,064
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,761
    Tower Fort just looks so good. Besides, basing my view Candlekeep has several floors, it suits better than the one-floor building from the first variant.

    So, I vote Tower!

    lolienbooinyoureyes
  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,064
    My vote is for the library.

  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited November 2014
    Heh it's a tough decision for me. I like both ways, though I do tend towards the Tower fort.

    In a way it does resemble Candlekeep (the actual building).

    image

    Maybe this choice should not be based on Baldur's Gate but on Heroes of Might and Magic gameplay of the map. However I'll wait for more opinions first.

    lolien
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    I actually prefer the tower fort!

    ShandyrJuliusBorisovlolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,807
    edited November 2014
    I see, from top left, the edge of the Cloakwood with a wyvern sitting next to the shadow druid tree, (or maybe that's the wyvern cave?) the Cloakwood Mines (?), the road leading to Baldur's Gate (is that pit the ankheg hill?), and in the bottom right corner, the Friendly Arms Inn. That must be the hunting lodge directly south of the wyvern?

    On the road to BG north of the FAI I see a "hobgoblin", a swordsman that might be Ajantis, and a pikeman that might be the ankheg hunting officer. The hut northeast of the pikeman must be either the Umberlant girl cleric's hut, or the farmer's hut who wants you to find his son in the ankheg hill.

    The two huts to the left of the ankheg hill might be the farmhouses of the farmers who stole the Umberlant's bowl and want her dead?

    Edit: Wait, after enlarging the picture, I see that those are not pikemen, but peasants. So the one to the right of Ajantis isn't the ankheg hunting officer, but the farmer with the missing son. I think the bowl-stealers would be slightly more clear if there were three of them there.

    Edit #2: I'd place an elf in that space between the hunting lodge and the wyvern cave, near that water, to be Coran. It looks like you don't have room to place the druids, unless you plan to create a rampart town to the left of the map cell we see here.

    Edit #3: Oh yes, I also prefer the tower town for Candlekeep. I think it would be an appropriate starting town for the wizard faction, and as you said, it even looks like the Candlekeep Library.

    ShandyrJuliusBorisovlolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,807
    edited November 2014
    I just realized something while studying the Candlekeep map for the umpteenth time today. Since resources are scarce, it looks like in early game, the player might have to make do with a ragtag army, since it will be impossibile to build towns without those resources.

    In the Candlekeep starting area, I notice you've placed unit recruitment structures for goblins, medusas, and gorgons.

    There would still be a huge problem with gold, though, as well as army morale penalties from mixed town types, unless you have something in mind to help players somehow overcome the "Hard times during the Iron Crisis of 1368" starting conditions and start having the resources to actually build up their towns.

    Do you have an option to make all of those single unit placements automatically non-hostile? I think that would help you a lot in constructing a possibly playable scenario. Without that, I think that just Tethtoril standing there at the north entrance to the gardens could wipe out most first level wizard players.

    You need to find some way to get at least wood and ore to be somewhat available, enough to construct at least a second level creature dwelling for each faction at the start. Have you considered placing stocked resource piles in each of the starting towns? Just enough of each to build first and second, and maybe third level creature structures? I did notice that you have apparently put a mercury alchemy lab in Candlekeep, in the infirmary.

    Well, again, I'm having lots of fun just thinking and brainstorming about how this could be a playable scenario. I do realize that you're mainly just doing geography right now, and that playability is only in the pre-conceptual stages. :)

    I commend you again for birthing such a fascinating brainchild. ;)

    Even if this never gets to a playable state, you've already provided a lot of fun and intellectual stimulation for gamers like me, who love both of these games. :)

    ShandyrJuliusBorisovlolien
  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,064
    @Shandyr
    With the editor, you can set creatures reaction (follower, hostile or running away). In this way, for instance, you can make those thieves in Candlekeep hostile by default (which would have sense).
    The building where you can recruite the archer can be very useful - with them, you can defeate most of the enemies in Candlekeep, except for the Mighty Gorgons (they are very strong).
    As for the resources, you can set their initial value, so that the player can have enough wood or ore to build something useful.

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    @Aedan‌ @BelgarathMTH‌

    At the moment Candlekeep is not meant to be a starter region.

    Instead it's meant to be a high level treasure dungeon. It will be hard to conquer but when you do it'll be rewarding (It's not finished yet by any means).

    The wizard fraction starts outs in the Cloud Peaks (Rasaad's quest area).

    This is just what have in mind for the moment. I may change it later.


    Also Gorgons and Mighty Gorgons will represent the cows from the game ;D
    So actually what you see in that picture is supposed to be Nessa ^^

    JuliusBorisovAedanlolienBelgarathMTH
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited November 2014
    @BelgarathMTH‌

    This is what I meant with just recreation of landscape and actually turning it into a map
    that makes fun in HoMM3

    There is a huge difference, because good HoMM3 maps require a very specific approach.

    Old version of south west:

    image

    New version of south west:

    image


    If I just recreate the Baldur's Gate maps I will end up with a map that has very large open space areas, where your hero can walk wherever they want like in the old version (first picture).

    This however is "deadly" for a good HoMM3 maps which rather requires lots of valleys, mountains and forests.

    But if I do that then you will have a larger loss of immersion because the landscape does look less like the landscape from Baldur's Gate.

    The gameplay required of me to turn the Xvartvillage into an actual town because Nashkel is far too much away from the gnoll stronghold (it's an XL map after all).

    But every starting location should have a second city within reasonable reach.

    By the way the Xvartvillage will be called "Ursaville" ;)

    But I think the new version is what a good HoMM3 map is actually supposed to look like.

    Also I'd like to hear @Tresset 's opinion on this.

    JuliusBorisovlolienBelgarathMTH
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    God, I can't wait to conquer the Sword Coast in the name of the gnolls >_>

    JuliusBorisovlolienBelgarathMTHCrevsDaak
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,761
    I like the detailed version :) Great job!

    You should make the map more complicated, even if it doesn't strictly follow the Sword Coast map. I agree on this.

    After all, the aim is to create a wonderful HOMM3 map. And because of references to BG, because of the spirit of BG there, we'll no doubt think it's a genuine the Sword Coast map, no matter there will be differences.

    ShandyrlolienBelgarathMTH
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Muwhaha I just thought of a nice pun.

    In front of Ursaville you'll encounter some "Xvarts" (-> most likely goblins)
    and they will say "Ursaville, protect us!"

    ("Ursa will protect us!")

    JuliusBorisovlolienwubbleBelgarathMTH
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Shandyr said:

    Adoy's Enclave is finished, as well as Firewine Bridge and Gullykin :D

    image

    WHAT THE HELL?

    What has happened here?

    Does anyone else see the Solis family from Desperate Housewives?

    I did not edit that post! Where is my original picture from Adoy's Enclave?

    lolien
  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,064
    I do see the picture of your map.
    I do not know if it is a coincidence or not, but I am watching season 7 of DH right now. LOL

    Shandyrlolien
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