Needing an expensive, rare book just to get into Candlekeep is complete and utter nonsense. It's a dreadful plot device and should have been dropped in the earlist planning stages.
My only explaination is that somebody was very drunk when they came up with it and nobody could be arsed to argue in case they were sacked.
Ribald is a terrible businessman. He should sell the scrolls of anti-magic for 30-50k gold and it would still be the best spent money in the game. One of the few ways to kill scs spell casting demi-liches without HLAs.
@Artona about your #45 if you can "roleplay" the cheese then of course it is efficient. Taking advantage of game engine limitations is not my idea of fun though. I think resting much, preparing an escape plan, abusing summons, scouting and pre-buffing is just common sense though. Welcome to the no-reload thread if you want to continue this discussion
I don't think comments of EE characters are much worse than original characters. "I command pure chaos! Kinda." 46. Anytime I see someone else's CHARNAME that happens to be evil I'm like "wow, so edgy... totally not like MY evil Bhaalspawns!".
Needing an expensive, rare book just to get into Candlekeep is complete and utter nonsense. It's a dreadful plot device and should have been dropped in the earlist planning stages.
My only explaination is that somebody was very drunk when they came up with it and nobody could be arsed to argue in case they were sacked.
One idea I came up with was that Balduran's Logbook, which sells for exactly the 5000 GP required, could have been used as a substitute for the book Eltan provides you to get in. I figure that you can't do that quest without having gotten into Baldur's Gate, and that's sufficient for the purposes of the plot. It would be interesting to have an alternative to the Flaming Fist questline.
Needing an expensive, rare book just to get into Candlekeep is complete and utter nonsense. It's a dreadful plot device and should have been dropped in the earlist planning stages.
My only explaination is that somebody was very drunk when they came up with it and nobody could be arsed to argue in case they were sacked.
It actually pre-dates BG. You can find mention of it in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast
Edit: (and also on page 89 of the 2nd edition campaign setting).
Wow, this thread has really derailed off-topic! @bengoshi , May I suggest splitting off "Exceptional Strength Makes No Sense" into a separate topic, since it looks like people really want to discuss it at length?
In the meantime, here is my unpopular opinion that I came here to post:
As soon as I see three 18's on a character sheet in STR, DEX, and CON, I lose all interest in or respect for that character. My eyes get sore from rolling them too hard. I really hate min-maxing. (Mandatory disclaimer: This is just me, everybody else can play however they want and it's all good, yada, yada.)
Most players who call themselves "chaotic neutral" are actually playing chaotic evil. At least half of players who call themselves "neutral evil" are actually playing chaotic evil. There are a *lot* more D&D players who love to play chaotic evil characters than will admit that to themselves or others. C'mon, just click on "chaotic evil" when you create your character. You know you want to.
Most players who call themselves "chaotic neutral" are actually playing chaotic evil. At least half of players who call themselves "neutral evil" are actually playing chaotic evil. There are a *lot* more D&D players who love to play chaotic evil characters than will admit that to themselves or others. C'mon, just click on "chaotic evil" when you create your character. You know you want to.
As a person who plays CN characters often in PnP games I hate when other players pick CN and then murder/steal/do whatever. Chaotic Neutral is motivation by whimsy, not kill anyone who looks at you wrong and then say you're just chaotic >_>
@BelgarathMTH for me it depends on the system/edition. When I'm playing 2e for example I have a hard time not min maxing because stats below 16 do very little for your character. While a Assassin with 18 Str and 18 Con sounds impressive, he only has -1 THAC0 +2 Damage +2 HP which is the equivalent of 14 Con / 13 Str in 3e and later editions.
But I do agree with you for any other games or other D&D editions.
Most players who call themselves "chaotic neutral" are actually playing chaotic evil. At least half of players who call themselves "neutral evil" are actually playing chaotic evil. There are a *lot* more D&D players who love to play chaotic evil characters than will admit that to themselves or others. C'mon, just click on "chaotic evil" when you create your character. You know you want to.
As a person who will break the speed limit occasionally when driving... Yet fails on a regular basis to mug people... I classify myself as neutral...
Plus... What is your fascination with Chaotic Evil @BelgarathMTH , I am concerned. You tried to foist this particular alignment onto my playthrough character...
I picture you in my mind staring at a wall with pictures of people and clips of text proving their chaotic evil alignment, superimposed over a map, pieces of string linking them all together whilst you cradle your weapon in your vigilante batman suit muttering "Soon"
Not sure if this qualifies as unpopular opinions, but I always use EE Keeper to tweak NPC proficiencies because I usually hate the defaults they come with. Usually, for whatever reason (role play?), NPC proficiencies are set up in a strange way, such as, a pip in Single Weapon Style, but 2 pips in Quarterstaff or some other two-handed weapon, for Jaheira, 1 pip in Quarterstaff, 2 pips in Clubs (really??), 1 in Sling, and so on. I have always imagined Jaheira as a stick fighter with natural bent, her BG1 portrait strongly suggests so. Everything else I can live with but the default proficiencies that NPCs come with is the most grating.
Despite all its shortcomings, I find the D&D alignment system fascinating and think it is a very useful categorization for fictional characters. In fact, I often apply it to unrelated works of fiction to see what kind of heroes or villains I'm dealing with.
@Anduin , I have a paladin's mindset, both in the game, and in real life. *casts Detect Evil on @Anduin , narrows eyes suspiciously.*
Seriously, I HATE evil. I absolutely *hate* it. I want it gone. The world would be so much better without it.
And yet, the saying "The way to Hell is paved with good intentions" is one of the oldest and most true our civilisation knows. Evil will be here. Your precious "Good" will always be corrupt, mostly by itself and succumb into Evil. Supported by zealots like you. Also... who draws the line between, what is Good and what is Evil?
@Anduin , I have a paladin's mindset, both in the game, and in real life. *casts Detect Evil on @Anduin , narrows eyes suspiciously.*
Seriously, I HATE evil. I absolutely *hate* it. I want it gone. The world would be so much better without it.
And yet, the saying "The way to Hell is paved with good intentions" is one of the oldest and most true our civilisation knows. Evil will be here. Your precious "Good" will always be corrupt, mostly by itself and succumb into Evil. Supported by zealots like you. Also... who draws the line between, what is Good and what is Evil?
Yeah, even as written D&D alignment is full of holes. There's been great threads on this throughout D&D's history on their official boards, on EN World, on the Giant In The Playground boards, on mailing lists and BBS boards, all tackling how contradictory and weird even alignment just as presented in the core books, without any splat books, often is.
The thing about alignment in D&D is that it isn't relative, it's explicitly laid down and tied to cosmic laws that, if you were a powerful enough mage (or unlucky enough regular mortal who got too close to a portal), you could actually go and visit and see in pure, immortal, unalterable forms. For example even Limbo, as pure Chaos, is essentially an immortal unalterable Chaos, which is what allows it to be solidified in places for a time, since a truly unalterable immortal Chaos can sometimes not be that, due to the purity of it. All of these things have real, tangible effects on the material plane.
Whether ethics and morality have relative aspects to them is debated in philosophy, although it seems clear to me that it's the case that understanding relative conceptions of morality and ethics is a big piece of understanding morality and ethics unless you're incredibly occluded in your vision by anthropocentric blinders...but in D&D, a relative understanding of morality and ethics is actually an impediment, since there are absolutes and the absolutes have real, observable weight, unlike in real life.
But then, given that, when you look at what's written, it often contradicts itself, because the writers of non-relative conceptions of ethics and morality are so steeped in the actual reality of how relative those things are that the Holy (or Unholy, or Chaotic, or Axiomatic) Word on what is and isn't Good (or Evil, or Chaotic, or Lawful) often manages to crash in on itself, usually in different ways in different editions, but it's never been consistent enough to make any kind of logical or philosophical sense as a non-relative system of ethics and morality.
You just gotta wing it, and use DM fiat when you wanna because you're the DM. That's about the long and short of the patchwork you can apply to D&D alignment to make it make any kind of sense when you look at it too closely.
Really? I just thought most people liked them for some reason I couldn't ever understand. I know some of my friends always liked them.
I though they filled the same space as paladins, you know a bunch of horrible people within a horrible organization, that most people are totally fine with.
Comments
Artemis Entreri is also a more interesting character to overrated Drizzt.
I find Aerie super cute and useful and not annoying or weak.
I hate gnomes. They're like an annoying combination of elves and halflings.
(Better, senpai?)
Minsc would say silly jokes like "beware, well scrubbed evil"
Viconia would say stuff like "I'm listening" and "be direct" in a very cartoonish way
Jan would be screaming "I loooove turnips" or saying not-funny stuff like "call me a licensed cleric" or "possibly frosty death"
Imoen would scream "heya!" all the time....
Not saying they're bad classes tho. They probably have the biggest RP potential in pnp. but in IE mage and fighter get the job done faster and better.
the paladin stronghold was so underwhelming and short I went as far as to delete my run and pretend it never happened.
It's a dreadful plot device and should have been dropped in the earlist planning stages.
My only explaination is that somebody was very drunk when they came up with it and nobody could be arsed to argue in case they were sacked.
@Artona about your #45 if you can "roleplay" the cheese then of course it is efficient. Taking advantage of game engine limitations is not my idea of fun though. I think resting much, preparing an escape plan, abusing summons, scouting and pre-buffing is just common sense though. Welcome to the no-reload thread if you want to continue this discussion
Minsc does say silly jokes like that.
"Minsc: Boo will have clean wood shavings, you evil bastards! "
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0085122/quotes
"Evil 'round every corner. Careful not to step in any."
"Boo does not trust this Kiser. See how his nose twitches? Something smells about this, and it is not stinky clouds from Boo's furry backside!"
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Baldur's_Gate_series#Minsc
What you said sounds like something that Minsc would say.
Also:
I thought "possibly frosty death" was pretty funny...
Yeah, I get it that you don't like the EEs are are trying to insult them. But you didn't do a very good job of it.
It is quite clear elves are tall gnomes.
Also Tolkien placed gnomes in his early works as the godlike Valar, and the Noldor...
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gnomes
Plus Aerie Loves gnomes...
...
You sir, are gnomophobic. I suggest a playthrough as a gnome thief/illusionist to eradicate any further irrational racism.
46. Anytime I see someone else's CHARNAME that happens to be evil I'm like "wow, so edgy... totally not like MY evil Bhaalspawns!".
We can now begin the mummification process...
...
This should be implemented in my opinion...
Edit: (and also on page 89 of the 2nd edition campaign setting).
In the meantime, here is my unpopular opinion that I came here to post:
As soon as I see three 18's on a character sheet in STR, DEX, and CON, I lose all interest in or respect for that character. My eyes get sore from rolling them too hard. I really hate min-maxing. (Mandatory disclaimer: This is just me, everybody else can play however they want and it's all good, yada, yada.)
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/56768/exceptional-strength-makes-no-sense
Most players who call themselves "chaotic neutral" are actually playing chaotic evil. At least half of players who call themselves "neutral evil" are actually playing chaotic evil. There are a *lot* more D&D players who love to play chaotic evil characters than will admit that to themselves or others. C'mon, just click on "chaotic evil" when you create your character. You know you want to.
When I'm playing 2e for example I have a hard time not min maxing because stats below 16 do very little for your character. While a Assassin with 18 Str and 18 Con sounds impressive, he only has -1 THAC0 +2 Damage +2 HP which is the equivalent of 14 Con / 13 Str in 3e and later editions.
But I do agree with you for any other games or other D&D editions.
Plus... What is your fascination with Chaotic Evil @BelgarathMTH , I am concerned. You tried to foist this particular alignment onto my playthrough character...
I picture you in my mind staring at a wall with pictures of people and clips of text proving their chaotic evil alignment, superimposed over a map, pieces of string linking them all together whilst you cradle your weapon in your vigilante batman suit muttering "Soon"
Probably an unpopular opinion.
We need Batman...
Seriously, I HATE evil. I absolutely *hate* it. I want it gone. The world would be so much better without it.
Also... who draws the line between, what is Good and what is Evil?
The thing about alignment in D&D is that it isn't relative, it's explicitly laid down and tied to cosmic laws that, if you were a powerful enough mage (or unlucky enough regular mortal who got too close to a portal), you could actually go and visit and see in pure, immortal, unalterable forms. For example even Limbo, as pure Chaos, is essentially an immortal unalterable Chaos, which is what allows it to be solidified in places for a time, since a truly unalterable immortal Chaos can sometimes not be that, due to the purity of it. All of these things have real, tangible effects on the material plane.
Whether ethics and morality have relative aspects to them is debated in philosophy, although it seems clear to me that it's the case that understanding relative conceptions of morality and ethics is a big piece of understanding morality and ethics unless you're incredibly occluded in your vision by anthropocentric blinders...but in D&D, a relative understanding of morality and ethics is actually an impediment, since there are absolutes and the absolutes have real, observable weight, unlike in real life.
But then, given that, when you look at what's written, it often contradicts itself, because the writers of non-relative conceptions of ethics and morality are so steeped in the actual reality of how relative those things are that the Holy (or Unholy, or Chaotic, or Axiomatic) Word on what is and isn't Good (or Evil, or Chaotic, or Lawful) often manages to crash in on itself, usually in different ways in different editions, but it's never been consistent enough to make any kind of logical or philosophical sense as a non-relative system of ethics and morality.
You just gotta wing it, and use DM fiat when you wanna because you're the DM. That's about the long and short of the patchwork you can apply to D&D alignment to make it make any kind of sense when you look at it too closely.
Elminster is by far the most overrated and boring character to come out of FR.
Drizzt may not be that well written but he gets way more hate than he deserves.
Harpers are douchebags.
I though they filled the same space as paladins, you know a bunch of horrible people within a horrible organization, that most people are totally fine with.