I still remember year's ago playing Watcher's Keep for the first time early in SoA and getting wiped constantly. Meta knowledge/game skill of course makes it easier, same as Durlag's in BGEE (and all Tales of the Sword Coast expansion content), but it was difficult way back when. After the Underdark, less so of course. And after 20 times, much less so again.
I agree that limiting the WK loot to TOB would seem logical design-wise, but you do have to fight to the lower levels for most of it, same as Durlag's. Instead of limiting it to ToB, I would probably suggest to remove the high-end swag from the merchant up top and put it on lower levels inside WK, i.e. Firetooth, SSof Mask, etc. This would be similar to Durlag's again, i.e. a merchant is there and accessible early with good gear, but nothing over-powered for the early game.
Personally, I think Durlag's design is excellent, and you do have to fight/avoid traps for the good items, especially without beau-coups of meta knowledge. WK is somewhat there, but a distant cousin.
Considering just how many Liches/Mages cast all manner of level 9 spells at you during SOA, I'd hate to have to slog through the whole thing and never be able to use any myself. So there's that.
Mmh... So, this one is not on Beamdog. Nice to know. Still disagree with the decision, though.
You would, unless you played SoA without ToB and hit the cap right after exiting Underdark. When I got that I was angry and I used the Xp.2da from IWD1, which worked perfectly.
Mmh... So, this one is not on Beamdog. Nice to know. Still disagree with the decision, though.
You would, unless you played SoA without ToB and hit the cap right after exiting Underdark. When I got that I was angry and I used the Xp.2da from IWD1, which worked perfectly.
In general I think SoA was better balanced with the old caps, even though it was frustrating to stop right before getting Level 9 spells.
Unfortunately, many of the ToB additions don't work well with SoA. Getting a few more levels and access to Level 9 spells would probably have been fine, but the HLAs just mess things up. In some cases you also get them too early, i.e. mage HLAs count as Level 10 spells but you get your first at the same time as Level 9 spells.
Best options might have been to expand the SoA level cap to ~3.5-4.0 millions and have the game give out HLA afterwards.
HLAs were added because people on BIS and Interplay boards were screaming for the 3E feats. Bioware made a compromise, adding those instead of feats (which would've meant a revamping of the whole engine a lot more time to be spent on an add-on. Back in those days that team had a lot to contend with, even though their games were successful and the community was thriving. Their management was not. Herve, the "genius" behind Interplay totally messed things up for years to come.
I still suspect he kept the mythical source code of IWD2, as he previously did on some Fallout titles while Intreplay (the original one) was undergoing bankruptcy. He would sell property rights from time to time.
Mmh... So, this one is not on Beamdog. Nice to know. Still disagree with the decision, though.
You would, unless you played SoA without ToB and hit the cap right after exiting Underdark. When I got that I was angry and I used the Xp.2da from IWD1, which worked perfectly.
I'm not sure it would have made a difference for me, because when I solo BG1, I hit the cap even before the Nashkel mines and still enjoy the ride. And hitting the cap in SoA probably happened to me in my early twenties (I only had SoA after all), but have no ill memory about that specific aspect of the game. What you say is however a real problem, because that means that the original developpers spread a bit too much xp around. But they tried to solve it by breaking the game even more. With the introduction of the WK in SoA with a much higher level cap, balance was effectively thrown out the window, item and level wise.
My reaction was more about solo playing, because, when you solo BG2, you hit the ToB cap early in SoA and thus become ungodly strong. So, there's even more balance issue here... but, to be totally honest, the game wasn't meant to be played solo, so I don't know how much work should be done to balance something the game wasn't meant to support in the first place. It's just that it becomes so bad when you solo that this highlights original balance problems in a way that is difficult to ignore. That's why having the option of playing with the cap or not would be nice.
. Unfortunately, many of the ToB additions don't work well with SoA. Getting a few more levels and access to Level 9 spells would probably have been fine, but the HLAs just mess things up. In some cases you also get them too early, i.e. mage HLAs count as Level 10 spells but you get your first at the same time as Level 9 spells.
Best options might have been to expand the SoA level cap to ~3.5-4.0 millions and have the game give out HLA afterwards.
Pretty much this. This is a very solid solution that also shows how messed up things became when ToB got out.
@Arctodus No, it was not actually the issue of spreading too much xp. It happened because of the experience gained in BG1 along with its expansion. It is possible for a character created directly in SoA to reach the cap around the final battle with Irenicus (at some point in Hell). But if you take a character through BG1 and TotSC is going to have about 1 1/2 or 2 levels of experience above a character created directly in BG2.
It can also be an issue of the class you play. In my case, I had a dual-class ranger/cleric (ranger in BG1 and cleric in BG2). A cleric might hit the cap earlier than say, a paladin or a mage.
Still on the subject at hand, I'd advise some playtesting before a feature is implemented.
@Redrake Well, the game has been played for almost twenty years now. I'm not sure how more playtesting would help. I think there's enough evidence lying around. It's a matter of making design choices at this point.
@Redrake Well, the game has been played for almost twenty years now. I'm not sure how more playtesting would help. I think there's enough evidence lying around. It's a matter of making design choices at this point.
I meant the additions from EE. Extra experience from SoD and from added quests from NPCs like Hexxat can totally upset the balance and then removing the cap would be a feature no one would use. It would be more work for almost nothing. That's why I said it would need some playtesting.
@Redrake Ok, I get it. And you're kinda right, now that I think about it. At this point, with all the extra quest from Beamdog npcs, the higher cap given by SoD and the WK, you would hit the cap probably somewhere in the Underdark. I wouldn't care much about it personally, but I can understand that people would be turned-off by this. I still think respecting the cap would make for a better SoA experience balance wise, but I would understand if that feature wouldn't be implemented.
I also seem to remember that reaching the XP cap in SoA was not really too low. The BG 1 expansion did not hurt that much with <100k more XP.
But we must also consider that the first playthrough is usually not as complete as later ones. How many people did really do everything on the first run? Including all 8 Strongholds, Twisted Rune, Kangaxx and the hidden sewer dungeon?
Last time I started with an SoD PC (so I started with 500k XP), completed all "easy" sidequests, 4/8 stronghold quests, Dorn + Hexxat quests and ended up reaching the original SoA XP cap while doing the 5th stronghold quest upon returning to Amn, but before Bodhi. I don't think a first time player would have reached the SoA cap before killing Bodhi at least the least, probably a bit later. Being at the Cap for the last chapter seems fine to me.
@Ammar I think most people were not able to do all 8 Strongholds as initially there was no mod to allow them for any classes. I do suspect however, that many players did the D'Arnise Stronghold, which earns a lot of experience. Pretty much the same with Bard stronghold.
Is true however, that on my first run I was a completionist and did everything (almost) before heading for Spellhold. Noteworthy, however on my first run, I was anxious to play BG2, so I skipped the Werewolves island part of TotSC. I reached the cap about the time I was exiting Underdark. Or more like this was my assumption based on noticing at some point later on that my character does not gain experience.
@Arctodus No, it was not actually the issue of spreading too much xp. It happened because of the experience gained in BG1 along with its expansion. It is possible for a character created directly in SoA to reach the cap around the final battle with Irenicus (at some point in Hell). But if you take a character through BG1 and TotSC is going to have about 1 1/2 or 2 levels of experience above a character created directly in BG2.
It can also be an issue of the class you play. In my case, I had a dual-class ranger/cleric (ranger in BG1 and cleric in BG2). A cleric might hit the cap earlier than say, a paladin or a mage.
Still on the subject at hand, I'd advise some playtesting before a feature is implemented.
TotSC added 72,000 XP to the BG1 cap, not quite doubling it (89,000 XP -> 161,000 XP). The original SoA cap was 2,950,000 XP. That means that the amount XP gained from TotSC was less than 2.5% of the total SoA cap. Going through the dialogs to free Aerie in Athkatla can net you 65,000 XP. On SoA's scales, the 72,000 XP from TotSC isn't game-breakingly huge. It's a equivalent to a small quest.
A character created in SoA will start out a level or so behind one imported from TotSC, but it won't be long before they are less than third of a level behind. For a thief, 72,000 XP is less than a 1/3rd of 220,000 XP (the "name level" XP difference), for mages, the difference will end up as 1/5th of a level.
This difference won't significantly affect whether your character hits the XP cap before the end of the game. If you can hit it before leaving the Underdark, it's not due to the extra 72,000 XP from TotSC.
There needs to be a modding scene and steam release for The Warriors like there is for other Rockstar games like the GTA franchise. At least a mod that connects all the different areas into one big open world.
Soloing as it was implemented is basically cheating, and the game should reduce or remove the Exp given to overleveled characters to at least mitigate the massive advantage soloing gives.
It wouldn't be so bad if the SoA xp cap was still in place in the EEs. Having to go through BG2 solo with a level 19 fighter wouldn't feel like cheating. I actually identified a very common trend among solo players : they're having fun through BG1, SoD (if they do it) and early BG2, but, once they hit the Underdark, they seem to care less about their run, because nothing is putting up enough of a challenge. They're only going through the motions of playing the game and starts to get bored. It simple how to explain it : SoA was not meant to be played with HLAs.
I know it was a necessity to remove the xp cap for players who want to go through the whole Watcher's Keep in SoA, but it's still the thing I dislike the most about the EEs. That choice has the real consequence of throwing a good portion of the balance out of the window. And it's not like the BG saga is the most balance game in the first place. Keeping the xp cap should at least be an option in the Gameplay section. Going through BG2 with a level 19 fighter or a level 23 thief wouldn't be as much of a walk in the park, that's for sure.
Everything doesn't have to super balanced in s single player game. If you want to stick to the ways of old then don't do any of the new stuff or expansion that was added to the game with ToB or EE. A lot of stuff I am seeing people not like just seems to be stuff that they can easily avoid by just not doing it instead of wanting some forced limitations that makes everyone play their way.
I always install a Bg2 mod called "xp mod" where you can limit the xp rewards throughout the game. In my case i limited all quest xp to 10% the original value , that way I end SoA at around its original cap (2.7 million) . For me it's a relief because the game does tend to get a bit dull after chapter 3 when your party gets too powerful. Edit: consequently, you finish ToB at about 4 million xp, which also keeps it more challenging since you won't possess more than 3 or 4 HLA's.
Edit 2: @Arctodus that mod also allows you to cut xp value to 1/6 of its original value, that way you can solo for the challenge but get the same xp you'd get with a full party.
Everything doesn't have to super balanced in s single player game. If you want to stick to the ways of old then don't do any of the new stuff or expansion that was added to the game with ToB or EE. A lot of stuff I am seeing people not like just seems to be stuff that they can easily avoid by just not doing it instead of wanting some forced limitations that makes everyone play their way.
I think you misinterpreted the intent of my comment. I'm not a balance freak, because otherwise I wouldn't be playing the BG saga in the first place.
One thing you seem to miss in my comment is that I was talking about solo play. In solo play, you rake in so much xp even if you do only the regular quests that you can end up at the ToB cap somewhere in the Underdark. And all those HLAs will effectively break the difficulty of SoA. It's something that the xp cap would actually prevent.
It's not about forcing my way of playing to everybody else - I'm really not that type of person believe me - it's about the exact opposite, which is to give MORE option to the player. If the devs would add a simple check box in the Gameplay section that you could click if you want to play with the xp cap, you could actually alleviate a problem that otherwise is forced upon you. And it would add quite a bit of difficulty to the game, which is something I personally like. It'a about having more choices, not less.
This thread is making me want to self impose the SoA cap next time I play. I'll probably just not level my characters up after 2.9 mil intil reaching ToB.
If you think respecting the self-imposed SoA cap is not for you, you can install the Tactics component for the final SoA fight and also decide to attack the whole Ust-Natha under SCS. I've come to the conclusion these two things can offset the presence of HLAs in SoA (for me).
Tactics Irenicus is most definitely not worth a few tens of thousands of extra XP. Not when you're fighting a shadow dragon, a CON-draining beholder, a superpowered Mordenkainen's Sword, and a fighter with total spell level immunities, all alongside a Slayer with constant effect Improved Alacrity and infinite mage spells.
No, that fight does not make the game easier. Not even remotely close. In a no-reload run, I wouldn't accept that challenge even if it gave a whole extra level to each party member--which it doesn't.
I'll add that those Uber-Ust-Natha mods also infringe on my suspension of disbelief. The story clearly states that the only reason the Drow are willing to tolerate your party's presence as foreigners is that the war with the elves has left them short-handed, and they need all the help they can get for Ardulace's big project. To turn around and be like, "Oh, we're desperate for good help, notwithstanding this small army of extra warriors we keep around to sic on intruders," well, it doesn't sit well with me.
It actually makes perfect sense. They may be short-staffed, but it's a whole city. If there are a bunch of heavily-armed foreigners butchering people left and right, and the local police force cannot take them down at first, the authorities are going to call in every reserve force they can possibly muster to defend their people. Is it really realistic that, in a state of war, a city of tens of thousands would leave themselves so defenseless that they couldn't even muster less than a hundred men to police the streets?
Even during World War 2, when entire countries were in a state of total warfare, there were still police officers on the streets. In fact, there were still soldiers at home, ready to defend the motherland in the event of an invasion. You never send all of your fighting men out onto the battlefield; you keep some at home.
The population of Ust Natha is 50,000. But the SCS Siege of Ust Natha only sends a few dozen people at you. That's not a whole lot.
Comments
I agree that limiting the WK loot to TOB would seem logical design-wise, but you do have to fight to the lower levels for most of it, same as Durlag's. Instead of limiting it to ToB, I would probably suggest to remove the high-end swag from the merchant up top and put it on lower levels inside WK, i.e. Firetooth, SSof Mask, etc. This would be similar to Durlag's again, i.e. a merchant is there and accessible early with good gear, but nothing over-powered for the early game.
Personally, I think Durlag's design is excellent, and you do have to fight/avoid traps for the good items, especially without beau-coups of meta knowledge. WK is somewhat there, but a distant cousin.
Unfortunately, many of the ToB additions don't work well with SoA. Getting a few more levels and access to Level 9 spells would probably have been fine, but the HLAs just mess things up. In some cases you also get them too early, i.e. mage HLAs count as Level 10 spells but you get your first at the same time as Level 9 spells.
Best options might have been to expand the SoA level cap to ~3.5-4.0 millions and have the game give out HLA afterwards.
I still suspect he kept the mythical source code of IWD2, as he previously did on some Fallout titles while Intreplay (the original one) was undergoing bankruptcy. He would sell property rights from time to time.
My reaction was more about solo playing, because, when you solo BG2, you hit the ToB cap early in SoA and thus become ungodly strong. So, there's even more balance issue here... but, to be totally honest, the game wasn't meant to be played solo, so I don't know how much work should be done to balance something the game wasn't meant to support in the first place. It's just that it becomes so bad when you solo that this highlights original balance problems in a way that is difficult to ignore. That's why having the option of playing with the cap or not would be nice.
No, it was not actually the issue of spreading too much xp. It happened because of the experience gained in BG1 along with its expansion. It is possible for a character created directly in SoA to reach the cap around the final battle with Irenicus (at some point in Hell). But if you take a character through BG1 and TotSC is going to have about 1 1/2 or 2 levels of experience above a character created directly in BG2.
It can also be an issue of the class you play. In my case, I had a dual-class ranger/cleric (ranger in BG1 and cleric in BG2). A cleric might hit the cap earlier than say, a paladin or a mage.
Still on the subject at hand, I'd advise some playtesting before a feature is implemented.
Edit : At this point, it might be modder's work.
But we must also consider that the first playthrough is usually not as complete as later ones. How many people did really do everything on the first run? Including all 8 Strongholds, Twisted Rune, Kangaxx and the hidden sewer dungeon?
Last time I started with an SoD PC (so I started with 500k XP), completed all "easy" sidequests, 4/8 stronghold quests, Dorn + Hexxat quests and ended up reaching the original SoA XP cap while doing the 5th stronghold quest upon returning to Amn, but before Bodhi. I don't think a first time player would have reached the SoA cap before killing Bodhi at least the least, probably a bit later. Being at the Cap for the last chapter seems fine to me.
Is true however, that on my first run I was a completionist and did everything (almost) before heading for Spellhold. Noteworthy, however on my first run, I was anxious to play BG2, so I skipped the Werewolves island part of TotSC. I reached the cap about the time I was exiting Underdark. Or more like this was my assumption based on noticing at some point later on that my character does not gain experience.
A character created in SoA will start out a level or so behind one imported from TotSC, but it won't be long before they are less than third of a level behind. For a thief, 72,000 XP is less than a 1/3rd of 220,000 XP (the "name level" XP difference), for mages, the difference will end up as 1/5th of a level.
This difference won't significantly affect whether your character hits the XP cap before the end of the game. If you can hit it before leaving the Underdark, it's not due to the extra 72,000 XP from TotSC.
Edit: consequently, you finish ToB at about 4 million xp, which also keeps it more challenging since you won't possess more than 3 or 4 HLA's.
Edit 2: @Arctodus that mod also allows you to cut xp value to 1/6 of its original value, that way you can solo for the challenge but get the same xp you'd get with a full party.
One thing you seem to miss in my comment is that I was talking about solo play. In solo play, you rake in so much xp even if you do only the regular quests that you can end up at the ToB cap somewhere in the Underdark. And all those HLAs will effectively break the difficulty of SoA. It's something that the xp cap would actually prevent.
It's not about forcing my way of playing to everybody else - I'm really not that type of person believe me - it's about the exact opposite, which is to give MORE option to the player. If the devs would add a simple check box in the Gameplay section that you could click if you want to play with the xp cap, you could actually alleviate a problem that otherwise is forced upon you. And it would add quite a bit of difficulty to the game, which is something I personally like. It'a about having more choices, not less.
No, that fight does not make the game easier. Not even remotely close. In a no-reload run, I wouldn't accept that challenge even if it gave a whole extra level to each party member--which it doesn't.
Even during World War 2, when entire countries were in a state of total warfare, there were still police officers on the streets. In fact, there were still soldiers at home, ready to defend the motherland in the event of an invasion. You never send all of your fighting men out onto the battlefield; you keep some at home.
The population of Ust Natha is 50,000. But the SCS Siege of Ust Natha only sends a few dozen people at you. That's not a whole lot.