@LadyEibhilinRhett Ahhh, so that's the Phil Athans Xzar makes reference to watching the end of the world with in BGNPC1. Never thought to look the name up.
Can't really blame the author for getting a lot of the plot and characters wrong considering the folks behind the game made Philip Athans write the thing BEFORE THE GAME CAME OUT, based only on bare bones information, with an unreasonable deadline, and refused to grant him even limited access to the beta so he could get a feel for the story.
That doesn't excuse quite everything in the book, but that does excuse a lot. BG had a brilliant storyline and compelling characters, but if the author simply wasn't given access to all the relevant information...
Well, imagine if somebody hired you for a job, didn't tell you what any of your duties were, put you in charge of a project with no stated objective, and then disappeared for a week. If the project doesn't go well, whose fault is that, really?
I mean, perhaps the BG novels weren't as bad if one ignores how heinously they fail at adapting the games, but the fact that the games exist doesn't just highlight the books failing as adaptations, but also shows us how much better they could have been in their own right, if they'd captured that same sort of magic. A waste of potential is just as frustrating as objective badness, so that still demands ire, the way I see it.
The problem is that the novels are supposed to be adaptations of the games. They SHOULDN'T be judged on their own, because they fail at the exact thing they were created to do.
let me clarify i never said it was good. i just said i did derive enjoyment from reading it and it's not the horrible unholy abomination everyone says it is. It's more just....okay, you know. except for how he kills off every character that he writes decently.
also @ThacoBell I'd argue that this one absolutely should be judged on its own, considering it was an "adaptation" of something that DIDN'T EVEN EXIST yet and the author did a pretty okay job with the sparse material he was actually given. But since the material he was given was so sparse, the guy pretty much WAS writing a standalone fantasy novel because that's all he COULD do.
And, according to some stuff he revealed later, I think it was when he was interviewed about it, he turned in his FIRST DRAFT to them for edits and when he asked when he could expect it back with the revision notes so he could make a final draft? They said it was fine and then, against the author's wishes, published it as-is in a money-grubbing move to get it out in time for the holiday season. They literally published this guy's FIRST DRAFT. And in that context, I have got to give the author props, because it's actually surprisingly good for a freaking first draft. I do a lot of writing myself and man, first drafts are almost always the Worst Thing Ever.
Oh, also. This Unpopular Opinion only applies for the FIRST book. The Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal adaptations? NO excuse for those. NO EXCUSE. I completely agree with the rest of the fandom that the second and third books are utter CRAP.
Boring isn't the word I'd use, but I personally think PS:T has the lowest replay value of all the IE games.
Granted, I can't actually blame for this. It's my own playstyle that makes it hard for me to replay PS:T.
Well, yeah, because PS:T is heavily narrative and has the same characters every time, with very little variation. The first time around, it's a life changing experience, but honestly, all subsequent playthroughs are gonna be near the same unless you actually have the stomach to go the evil route, and, unlike a lot of games, PS:T has a truly horrifying evil arc, so not many people can.
It's like reading a good book. You're not going to read the same book over and over again, back to back most of the time. Sure every once in a while you'll think, "man that was a good book, I want to read it again," but you're not going to start rereading it super soon after you finish it.
The other IE games, the BG and Icewind Dale series, are both much less intense, story-wise, but they're different every playthrough.
Baldur's Gate has an experience that changes each time because there are so many party members to choose from, each with their own personalities. Traveling with characters like Jan Jansen and Haer'Dalis is going to be a much different experience from traveling with guys like Anomen and Keldorn. Even in BG1, despite its lack of banter, there are some pretty good differences between parties. And, most importantly of all, you create your own main character, and they can be p much anyone you want them to be, and that's a powerful replay value tool. PS:T doesn't even come CLOSE to that - sure, you can play the Nameless One with any type of personality and morality you like, but after your first playthrough, your headcanon version of him is pretty much gonna be cemented in your head.
Icewind Dale is super sparce on story, but allows you to entirely create your own party. It lets you fill in the story blanks with your own imagination. Most importantly, it is absolutely brutal and tactically intense, and you face a different type of challenge with each party formation. Moreso than any other IE game, combat in the IWD series is SUPER FUN AND HARD. The challenge alone is enough to make it worth a replay. PS:T? Not so much. Again, amazing story, but most of the combat really is not that difficult especially considering how completely BROKEN the Nameless One quickly becomes in terms of power. The combat in PS:T is its clunkiest aspect, and it certainly won't keep anyone coming back for a second round. Heck, if you want to, it's possible to finish the entire game and only fight twice. Ever.
tl;dr PS:T definitely does have the lowest replay value of all IE games, but it's because its greatest strength, and the same thing that makes it so great, just happens to be a thing that is best as a one-time experience to be remembered and treasured but not necessarily revisited over and over.
I always wanted to read the books but I could never get ahold of them. If i can take them off someone's hand though... I think they are actually collectors items.
@iroumen you can usually find them on amazon or eBay for cheap if you're actually interested. I got my copy from an online vendor that was literally selling the thing for one cent. (plus shipping, but it was a REALLY low shipping cost)
Okay, fine. You want an unpopular opinion? I'll give you the most unpopular one of them all. An opinion so unpopular, I have hesitated to share it with anyone in the community or even to post it on this thread, that was specifically made for unpopular opinions: The Baldur's Gate novelization really wasn't all that bad.
In fact, let's add one more confession just to make SURE this is the most unpopular opinion here:
While there were definitely some parts I really disliked, and seriously what were they thinking with the scene where the spider falls into Jaheira's cleavage, as a whole, I unironically enjoyed reading it. There. I said it.
Does it get some plot points wrong? Sure. Does it screw up the personalities of a lot of the characters? Heck yes. As an adaptation of the game, it's a bad job. It's a terrible, terrible job. But as a standalone fantasy adventure novel? Pretty bog-standard, and actually quite enjoyable in a lot of places.
Can't really blame the author for getting a lot of the plot and characters wrong considering the folks behind the game made Philip Athans write the thing BEFORE THE GAME CAME OUT, based only on bare bones information, with an unreasonable deadline, and refused to grant him even limited access to the beta so he could get a feel for the story.
And again? As a standalone story? Really not that bad. I mean it's not excellent by any means, but it definitely doesn't deserve near the amount of flak it gets.
I agree on the PS:T. I never finished it once, and hardly had the nerve to admit it. It was kinda.. boring. To me, I just don't see the whole "life-changing" others talk about, but then again, few things ever has that effect on me. I bought the PST:EE, but haven't even made it out of the morgue.
People like to hype so much that sometimes it feels like they hype things just to hype. To get the thrills from the expectations, from the waiting for a new season or a new entry to a series (ie Star Wars). I sometimes envy those people, but mostly I just don't understand them.
Yeah, I am growing more and more jaded it seems.
Edit, putting this in spoilers since it's just weird ramblings from a jaded old man.
let me clarify i never said it was good. i just said i did derive enjoyment from reading it and it's not the horrible unholy abomination everyone says it is. It's more just....okay, you know. except for how he kills off every character that he writes decently.
That hasn't seemed to hinder George R. R. Martin's popularity.
tl;dr PS:T definitely does have the lowest replay value of all IE games, but it's because its greatest strength, and the same thing that makes it so great, just happens to be a thing that is best as a one-time experience to be remembered and treasured but not necessarily revisited over and over.
In other words, "PS:T was Undertale before Undertale was Undertale"
Undertale is worth replaying once or twice, largely because few people do the pacifist route on the first try. I came pretty close, but since I had no idea that a pacifist run was possible (I went in completely blind), I ended up killing several critters in the process: Migosp because I thought they were evil, Tsundereplane by accident, and Toriel, Undyne, and Mettaton because I didn't know they could be spared.
But I wouldn't recommend replaying Undertale too many times. Sooner or later you're going to have a bad time.
let me clarify i never said it was good. i just said i did derive enjoyment from reading it and it's not the horrible unholy abomination everyone says it is. It's more just....okay, you know. except for how he kills off every character that he writes decently.
That hasn't seemed to hinder George R. R. Martin's popularity.
You mean that guy who ruined a perfectly good setting and world with a soap opera story? You know the one, where so many characters die that there is no point to getting invested in any of them? Which actually isn't big of a problem, because nobody is even remotely likeable. Except the guy that you KNOW is going to die halfway through the first book, simply because that character type always does.
let me clarify i never said it was good. i just said i did derive enjoyment from reading it and it's not the horrible unholy abomination everyone says it is. It's more just....okay, you know. except for how he kills off every character that he writes decently.
That hasn't seemed to hinder George R. R. Martin's popularity.
You mean that guy who ruined a perfectly good setting and world with a soap opera story? You know the one, where so many characters die that there is no point to getting invested in any of them? Which actually isn't big of a problem, because nobody is even remotely likeable. Except the guy that you KNOW is going to die halfway through the first book, simply because that character type always does.
Yes, that one.
My wife loved those books (long before the HBO series came out) and encouraged me to read them. They were well-written, but I didn't feel compelled to keep reading when I needed to create a mysql database just to keep track of the characters and plots. Still, one cannot deny the popularity of the books and series, whatever one thinks of them personally.
Well, I throw it out there. I don't care much for any of the other IE games other than the BG series. IWD has some good stuff but I just cant get into the multiple party PC's or the no special story idea behind the PC. Sure there are some new NPCs made but still. That BG 1 CHARNAME centric style has stuck with me. Played through once and that was enough. Anything else just seems 'off'. IWD2 the same and character creation goes into everyone can train in class focused skills I find hard to adapt to as well. It was not a continuation of my IWD PC either. Too many choices I reckon to to get through creation.
@Wise_Grimwald While there were definitely some parts I really disliked, and seriously what were they thinking with the scene where the spider falls into Jaheira's cleavage
Comments
Well, imagine if somebody hired you for a job, didn't tell you what any of your duties were, put you in charge of a project with no stated objective, and then disappeared for a week. If the project doesn't go well, whose fault is that, really?
Planescape: Torment is boring.
There.
let me clarify i never said it was good. i just said i did derive enjoyment from reading it and it's not the horrible unholy abomination everyone says it is. It's more just....okay, you know. except for how he kills off every character that he writes decently.
also @ThacoBell I'd argue that this one absolutely should be judged on its own, considering it was an "adaptation" of something that DIDN'T EVEN EXIST yet and the author did a pretty okay job with the sparse material he was actually given. But since the material he was given was so sparse, the guy pretty much WAS writing a standalone fantasy novel because that's all he COULD do.
And, according to some stuff he revealed later, I think it was when he was interviewed about it, he turned in his FIRST DRAFT to them for edits and when he asked when he could expect it back with the revision notes so he could make a final draft? They said it was fine and then, against the author's wishes, published it as-is in a money-grubbing move to get it out in time for the holiday season. They literally published this guy's FIRST DRAFT. And in that context, I have got to give the author props, because it's actually surprisingly good for a freaking first draft. I do a lot of writing myself and man, first drafts are almost always the Worst Thing Ever.
Oh, also. This Unpopular Opinion only applies for the FIRST book. The Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal adaptations? NO excuse for those. NO EXCUSE. I completely agree with the rest of the fandom that the second and third books are utter CRAP.
Granted, I can't actually blame the game for this. It's my own playstyle that makes it hard for me to replay PS:T.
It's like reading a good book. You're not going to read the same book over and over again, back to back most of the time. Sure every once in a while you'll think, "man that was a good book, I want to read it again," but you're not going to start rereading it super soon after you finish it.
The other IE games, the BG and Icewind Dale series, are both much less intense, story-wise, but they're different every playthrough.
Baldur's Gate has an experience that changes each time because there are so many party members to choose from, each with their own personalities. Traveling with characters like Jan Jansen and Haer'Dalis is going to be a much different experience from traveling with guys like Anomen and Keldorn. Even in BG1, despite its lack of banter, there are some pretty good differences between parties. And, most importantly of all, you create your own main character, and they can be p much anyone you want them to be, and that's a powerful replay value tool. PS:T doesn't even come CLOSE to that - sure, you can play the Nameless One with any type of personality and morality you like, but after your first playthrough, your headcanon version of him is pretty much gonna be cemented in your head.
Icewind Dale is super sparce on story, but allows you to entirely create your own party. It lets you fill in the story blanks with your own imagination. Most importantly, it is absolutely brutal and tactically intense, and you face a different type of challenge with each party formation. Moreso than any other IE game, combat in the IWD series is SUPER FUN AND HARD. The challenge alone is enough to make it worth a replay. PS:T? Not so much. Again, amazing story, but most of the combat really is not that difficult especially considering how completely BROKEN the Nameless One quickly becomes in terms of power. The combat in PS:T is its clunkiest aspect, and it certainly won't keep anyone coming back for a second round. Heck, if you want to, it's possible to finish the entire game and only fight twice. Ever.
tl;dr PS:T definitely does have the lowest replay value of all IE games, but it's because its greatest strength, and the same thing that makes it so great, just happens to be a thing that is best as a one-time experience to be remembered and treasured but not necessarily revisited over and over.
Edit: never mind, the user who put a like on it has since changed it to an "insightful"
People like to hype so much that sometimes it feels like they hype things just to hype. To get the thrills from the expectations, from the waiting for a new season or a new entry to a series (ie Star Wars). I sometimes envy those people, but mostly I just don't understand them.
Yeah, I am growing more and more jaded it seems.
Edit, putting this in spoilers since it's just weird ramblings from a jaded old man.
But I wouldn't recommend replaying Undertale too many times. Sooner or later you're going to have a bad time.
My wife loved those books (long before the HBO series came out) and encouraged me to read them. They were well-written, but I didn't feel compelled to keep reading when I needed to create a mysql database just to keep track of the characters and plots. Still, one cannot deny the popularity of the books and series, whatever one thinks of them personally.
I don't care much for any of the other IE games other than the BG series. IWD has some good stuff but I just cant get into the multiple party PC's or the no special story idea behind the PC. Sure there are some new NPCs made but still. That BG 1 CHARNAME centric style has stuck with me. Played through once and that was enough. Anything else just seems 'off'. IWD2 the same and character creation goes into everyone can train in class focused skills I find hard to adapt to as well. It was not a continuation of my IWD PC either. Too many choices I reckon to to get through creation.
Pics* or it din't happen!
(*of the page or pages in question.)