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The Adventurer's Lounge: Guidance and Support for No Reload Challengers- Newbie or Veteran

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  • jessejmcjessejmc Member Posts: 125
    edited November 2019
    Grond0 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to know if there is an equal probability for each initiative value. Your sample size is too low to give strong indications, but it suggests there may not be an equal probability - or at least that that is so when the initiative roll would take the results outside the standard round period if the range were not constrained.

    Agreed on the small sample size (I didn't even gather enough to complete all expected flail segments, as it was the last one I tested). At least for speed factor 0, the data suggests that more attacks occur at sf0 than at sf1 and sf2. I would expect that 4/6 of attacks occur at sf0 (-3, -2, -1, 0 initiative rolls), 1/6 at sf1, and 1/6 at sf2.

    Some more numbers @ 10 FPS.

    2 APR Two-handed Sword
    8.70 16.60
    8.75 16.83
    8.80 16.66
    8.80 16.88
    8.81 16.84
    8.85 16.92
    8.87 16.94
    8.88 17.01
    8.91 17.14
    9.72 18.01
    9.75 17.80
    9.78 17.89
    9.91 17.96
    10.65 18.72
    10.91 19.10
    10.96 19.03
    11.51 19.53
    11.68 19.29
    11.70 19.73
    11.73 19.52
    11.78 19.68
    11.83 19.90
    11.85 19.86
    11.91 20.04
    11.99 19.70

    2 APR Longbow
    1.62 9.77
    1.65 9.87
    1.76 9.72
    1.76 9.98
    1.77 9.59
    1.77 9.93
    1.78 9.91
    1.82 9.73
    1.83 9.88
    1.83 9.96
    2.86 11.00
    3.75 11.92
    3.76 11.78

    5/2 APR Shortbow
    1.54 7.41
    1.54 7.49
    1.54 7.55 13.84
    1.58 7.40 13.75
    1.59 7.25
    1.65 7.51 13.76
    1.70 7.67
    1.73 7.62 13.97
    1.76 7.51 13.94
    1.90 7.73 14.04
    2.24 8.18
    2.29 8.22 14.73
    2.82 8.72 15.09
    2.89 8.92 15.25

    Speed factor segment average timings from earlier
    sf0 - 1.59
    sf1 - 3.48
    sf2 - 5.30
    sf3 - 7.07
    sf4 - 8.85
    sf5 - 10.79
    sf6 - 12.55
    sf7 - 14.42
    sf8 - 16.09
    sf9 - 17.95
    sf10 - 19.23

    A few brief observations.
    1) The Two-handed Sword at 2 APR doesn't begin at sf7 - sf10 like expected, but it instead gains an attack earlier in the round.
    2) At 2 APR, either the first or second attack corresponds with a speed factor segment, but the other one doesn't. This appears to be the case for 5/2 and 3 APR as well, where one attack corresponds with a speed factor segment and the other two don't, but I don't have as much data.
    3) A fractional APR places the lower number of attacks (2 APR of 5/2 APR) in the same segments as the higher number (3 APR of 5/2 APR) and only uses the earlier segments.

    AerakarGrond0JuliusBorisovGusinda
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,025
    @kjeron: Awesome! Would it be possible to loosen up those RBF files to allow some rare cases of APR above 10, without messing with regular attack animations? If we could put together a simple mod to open up 15 or 20 APR, we could allow other mods to copy over that mod's files to enable the higher APR values. It would definitely be very nice if I could incorporate it into my Sword Dancer kit mod, which currently uses on-hit effects to replicate the appearance of extra hits.

  • BubbBubb Member Posts: 730
    Not to hijack the awesome train of findings in this thread, but does anyone know why they decided to use *image* files, of all things? Seems like a very odd medium for this sort of mechanic, a 2DA would make much more sense in my mind.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,119
    semiticgod wrote: »
    @kjeron: Awesome! Would it be possible to loosen up those RBF files to allow some rare cases of APR above 10, without messing with regular attack animations? If we could put together a simple mod to open up 15 or 20 APR, we could allow other mods to copy over that mod's files to enable the higher APR values. It would definitely be very nice if I could incorporate it into my Sword Dancer kit mod, which currently uses on-hit effects to replicate the appearance of extra hits.
    You would inevitably lose attack-animation sync at higher values, since you just can't fit more than 7x 14-frame animations in a 100 frame window.
    Anything done with this would be a complete overhaul, and I don't think it would affect certain polymorphs or enemies (there are about 5 versions of each file, and I don't know which of the others map to which creature animations).
    Given the random +2/-3 factor, I think the best you could do is effectively abandon weapon speeds, and split each APR value into 2 values, using speed 0-2 for one APR value, and speed 8-10 for another APR value. After the random adjustment, speeds 0-2 would use slots 0-4, speeds 8-10 would use slots 5-10.
    APR 1, speed 8-10 = 1 APR
    APR 1, speed 0-2 = 2 APR
    APR 2, speed 8-10 = 3 APR
    APR 2, speed 0-2 = 4 APR
    etc...
    APR 5, speed 8-10 = 9 APR
    APR 5, speed 0-2 = 10 APR
    1/2 APR would fill in gaps as they currently do, while Imp. Haste would double them.
    All weapon speed bonuses would have to be removed, or understood that they now give odd-APR (and even 1/2) values a chance for +1 APR each round.

    Either the files don't accept additional rows, or the value is capped before checking them, so no extending them for higher weapon speed values.

    @Bubb This goes back to Bioware (the files are present in the original BG1), so who knows.

    StummvonBordwehrAerakarsemiticgod
  • jessejmcjessejmc Member Posts: 125
    Some more numbers. I didn't do many tests, as I think earlier numbers do a fair job of establishing the patterns.

    2 APR Flail (main) / Dagger +2 (off)
    7.66 15.76
    9.93 18.17

    2 APR Dagger +2 (main) / Flail (off)
    1.63 9.61
    1.88 10.01

    7/2 APR Dart
    1.65 5.54 9.53 13.53
    1.75 5.73 9.75 13.71
    3.38 7.38 11.15

    For the following two, combat is initiated with the first weapon and then immediately switched to the second.

    1 APR Two-handed Sword -> 7/2 APR Dart
    7.70 11.60 15.45 19.53
    7.67 11.50 15.61 19.57

    7/2 APR Dart -> 2 APR Two-handed Sword
    1.72* 9.65 (first attack animation played with no attack roll as expected)
    3.76 11.92
    4.85 12.61
    5.51 13.50
    5.67 13.67

    And more observations.
    1) The weapon that is used to initiate the round sets the speed factor for the entire round.
    2) With Two Weapon fighting, the main hand weapon sets the speed factor. I only have 4 samples of these, so the conclusion could be wrong, but I suspect it holds.
    3) When using the 7/2 APR Dart, there is roughly 12 seconds for the 4 attacks, regardless of if it starts with the Dart speed factor or the Two-handed Sword speed factor. When using the 2 APR Two-handed Sword, there is roughly 8 seconds for the 2 attacks, regardless of if it starts with it's own speed factor or that of the Dart.
    4) When switching from a higher APR weapon to a lower one, the segments seem to be recalculated based on the current weapon. With the Dart -> THS test, I was expecting the second THS attack to land where a 2nd dart attack would, but it's instead pushed back to where a 2 APR sf2 attack would be expected.

    When using a medium speed weapon, say with sf5, there are 6 segments the attack could occur in because of initiative, 2-7. If leading with a sf0 weapon, it narrows to 3 segments, 0-2 (66% of which are expected to occur at sf0). The only problem here is that you will frequently lose your first attack if you immediately switch. With multiple APR though, you can use the timing of the first attack to determine the timing of subsequent attacks, regardless of which weapon you switch to. A sf10 weapon will have 4 segments, 7-10 (50% of which are expected to occur at sf10), which could be used to narrow down the timing for a medium speed weapon.

    PS: After a very brief test, with a 3/2 APR Two-handed sword, since it uses the timing of 2 APR, the first attack, even if it's the only one in the round, will occur mid-round instead of at the end. I didn't do enough testing to determine which speed factors get an earlier attack, like the THS, and which ones gain a later attack, like the Dagger +2.

    PPS: I think I've discovered everything I intended to, so I doubt I'll do any more timing.

    Grond0
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,119
    Weapon speed is not capped until after the random adjustment, so you could also split it 3 ways:
    High negative bonus (-20) - always uses slot 10.
    High positive bonus (+20) - always uses slot 0.
    Default weapon speed range set to 4 to 7, using slots 1 - 9.

    You could setup a slot to always have 0 attacks.

    This could be used to give APR bonuses through weapon styles, since they can adjust weapon speed.

    Offhand attacks cannot be interwoven with mainhand attacks (beyond the default), though you can increase the number of offhand attacks at the end.
    So you could instead reserve slot 10 for dual-wielding, giving each hand an equal amount of attacks, such as:
    mainhand - mainhand - offhand - offhand for 4 APR, and
    mainhand - mainhand - mainhand - offhand - offhand for 5 APR.

    StummvonBordwehrGrond0
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    edited November 2019
    My party have just returned from the werewolf island. We have killed one of them, but not the second (The mate of Kaisha). He seems to be invulnerable. In the past several different weapons hurt him particularly the Sword of Balduran, but not now. Is this a bug, and is there a way to solve the problem? He also seems invulnerable to magical assault. Arrows of dispelling have no effect at all either. :(
    My game is heavily modded. I don't know whether that is important.

    Post edited by Wise_Grimwald on
    StummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,616
    My party have just returned from the werewolf island. We have killed one of them, but not the second (The mate of Kaisha). He seems to be invulnerable. In the past several different weapons hurt him particularly the Sword of Balduran, but not now. Is this a bug, and is there a way to solve the problem? He also seems invulnerable to magical assault. Arrows of dispelling have no effect at all either. :(

    My game is heavily modded. I don't know whether that is important.

    @Wise_Grimwald there are not many weapons with the 'silver' attribute required to hit the loup garous - but the Sword of Balduran is one of those (see here for others).

    It may be though that she's invulnerable because you have not followed the appropriate quest path - have you reported back to her after visiting the wrecked ship?

    If it is a bug, you may still be able to kill her with magic, traps and items (like potions of firebreath).

    StummvonBordwehrAerakar
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    edited November 2019
    Whilst the weapons that should have worked didn't and neither did Melf's Minute Missiles, Magic Missiles did, and Chromatic Orb was particularly effective. Went from injured to death with just one orb! At least he didn't follow me outside so I could sleep and change my spell selection. :)@Grond0 If you read my post carefully, you will realise that it was Selaad Gan that I was talking about, not Kaisha. Kaisha was easy enough to kill as was Baresh.

    Post edited by Wise_Grimwald on
    Aerakar
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 1,044
    I have an Inquisitor in Durlag's Tower (haven't introduced him in the thread yet), he's level 7 and has just left the Candlekeep catacombs, keeping a low profile and preparing for his return to the city.

    So, I've twice managed to fight the four warders without a reload in previous runs, but always just narrowly avoided having a party member chunked. Of course, I suppose with my inquisitor's True Sight the nasty Avarice won't backstab as much as usual, but still... I've heard that people fought the warders separately, not all 4 at once.
    How is that done? Just draw them out somehow, or is there a way to fight one of them when he disappears after having his riddle solved?

    If there's a way that works and can be roleplayed (I don't attack blue circles without very good reason), I'd appreciate the advice. If not, I'll just fight all four of them as before.
    Thanks!

  • jessejmcjessejmc Member Posts: 125
    @Arvia: They have to be drawn out. Place your party in a safe place and have one member talk to the final warder. After they go hostile, have that member go invisible with a potion or spell, then regroup with your party. Slowly walk forward and try to get vision on only one at a time and get them to follow you. Since you likely have the Paws of the Cheetah from Drasus, you could probably avoid invisibility and just have the member run away. Summons can be used to split them up or distract them.

    ZaghoulAerakarArvia
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    @Arvia I have a slight improvement on the method of @jessejmc . If you have love as the last one to be satisfied and then run from him to the other side of the chamber past the two warders at that side of the room before taking the potion of invisibility: then at least one, and possibly two warders will be badly hurt by the cloudkill spell. I have had the warders attack and even kill each other using this tactic, but even if that doesn't happen, they will get injured by it.

    ArviaAerakar
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 1,044
    Thank you both. I was too impatient and fought all four at once as before (somehow my party is always out of the Cloudkill AoE). Had to go and resurrect Isra afterwards.
    I'm going to keep your advices in mind, because I'm planning to try SCS next time and I guess it's going to be more difficult then.
    For now, I hope I'm going to take my inquisitor at least to the final fight with Sarevok, like my Undead Hunter. Reason says to skip the rest of the tower, but honor demands otherwise...

    Grond0AerakarStromael
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    Arvia wrote: »
    Thank you both. I was too impatient and fought all four at once as before (somehow my party is always out of the Cloudkill AoE). Had to go and resurrect Isra afterwards.
    I'm going to keep your advices in mind, because I'm planning to try SCS next time and I guess it's going to be more difficult then.
    For now, I hope I'm going to take my inquisitor at least to the final fight with Sarevok, like my Undead Hunter. Reason says to skip the rest of the tower, but honor demands otherwise...

    The cloudkill is cast by the warders, Love I think. I love to use the enemy to defeat itself.

    If you are soloing you can also use the traps to the left of the warders. Use haste to run through the trap and any warders following you will get caught in the blast. I usually remove all the traps apart from the fireball trap first. That one doesn't disappear after being sprung. Potion of fire resistance is good insurance against mis-timing things.

    Lateral thinking is particularly useful in Durlag's !!!

    AerakarArvia
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    edited November 2019
    @semiticgod Completely different to my favourite tactics, but I can see that they would probably work. There isn't a right way and a wrong way. If it works it's fine. My ethos and his are opposite. His is to finish as quickly as possible, mine, particularly in my current game as a servant of Cyric is to kill as many as possible so that the streets run red with blood thus fulfilling the prophecies of the Wise Aulando and truly earning the title "Lord of Murder."

    Post edited by Wise_Grimwald on
    AerakarStromaelArvia
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 1,044
    @semiticgod , it must be very interesting to try all kinds of different strategies to survive under different circumstances. Sometimes I wish I could distance myself enough from the character I play, but I feel bad and lose interest quickly if I don't roleplay in a way that I can at least remotely identify with. But maybe I'll produce antibodies against the paladin virus in a couple of years :wink:

    But I think this time at least I'll use invisibility to get past the Ashirukuru. I hate those guys.

    AerakarGrond0Wise_Grimwald
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    edited November 2019
    Doing the Northern tales of the Sword Coast mod. However after freeing Reedrig he isn't at Ulgoth's Beard as he should be. I know where he SHOULD spawn, but he doesn't.
    I have tried using EE Keeper to create him at Ulgoth's Beard, but then he doesn't speak. :(
    Any ideas?
    He is vital to continuing with the various quests in that mod.
    Of course I could just give up on finishing those quests, but since I have never completed them, I would have liked to have completed them this time.

  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,112
    @Wise_Grimwald I thought he didn't show up there by the cult headquarters until after the soultaker dagger scenario, (or is that another guy?) but it's been a little while since I did that one.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    edited November 2019
    @Zaghoul I didn't know that. Thanks. I will have to do Durlag's Tower next. I think that I must have finished Durlag's earlier in my last game.
    Just came across another scenario that I'm not familiar with. Zernan stole the tome that I use to get into Candlekeep. I followed him to Nashkel where I killed him, and a cryptic note sent me to the Carnival. However, I haven't found out where his colleagues are yet. North of the hill at the Carnival... Plenty of kobolds up there, but I think that they were irrelevant.
    EDIT
    They WERE irrelevant. I've discovered where I am supposed to be going. Back down the Nashkel Mines.
    After that Durlag's Tower.

    Post edited by Wise_Grimwald on
    ZaghoulStummvonBordwehr
  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 241
    Mal-Kalen from BG1 Unfinished Business has killed by one hit my berserker who had activeted his rage. Do you know what ability is he using and is there any defense against this "vorpal" hit? Combat log didn´t reveal any failed save, just message "energy drain". Berserker should be immune.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,616
    See here for the explanation - rage protects against level drain, but not stat drain.

    ZaghoulsemiticgodWise_Grimwald
  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 241
    Thank you. Next time I will give him the body.

    Wise_Grimwald
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,040
    I just don't install that component usually, it doesn't seem very well designed to me.

  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    @velehal I will do the same in future. It's a pity that you are not given the option of going for the body if you meet Mal-Kalan before killing the vampyric wolf.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 241
    Do you use component of SCS "Party´s item are taken from them in Spellhold". With the old version of spell "Enchanted Weapon" it was doable. But now it seems to be very challenging, especially with Almateria´s Restoration Project (adds Adamite Golem).

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,025
    I've only used it in my first no-reload run, before EE, and a single other one since then. In both cases, I really had to ration resources to get by.

  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 241
    I´m pondering whether to play with this component and standard insane SCS (no double damage) or without it and Legacy of Bhaal dificulty for High-Level Abilities for mages (for all mages in BG2). I don´t see how I could beat Irenicus in Spellhold with his Planetar without equipment.
    But I have a feeling that playing without equipment is easier than facing Planetar. (I want to have Imoen in party and so I go to Spellhold relatively early).

  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,611
    edited December 2019
    In my next set-up I am considering whether to use Deities of Faerûn or Faith n Powers.
    I would like some feedback from those who have experience of them both.
    I have read that they are incompatible, but to what extent? Clearly you cannot have both sphere systems running concurrently, but is it possible to have the kits of both and not the sphere systems of both?
    Having the kits of both would obviously be to the advantage of the writers of both mods as it would give more scope to those who use them and hence make them happier.
    I do hope that they don't see each other as competition which they want to eliminate.

    EDIT
    I have just found the following thread which I think will answer my own question. I'll just have to read it carefully before installation.

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/70652/divine-remix-deities-of-faerun-or-faiths-and-powers-gods-of-the-realms

    Post edited by Wise_Grimwald on
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