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David Gaider on representation in games

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  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    @David_Gaider Thanks for responding! I would just like to clarify a couple things:

    I am sure you could do a good Native American character, but I can’t. There are nuances is phrases, word selection, speech patterns, etc, that I simply cannot get right unless I have enough personal experience with people

    I am not a professional writer — okay, the checks cleared, so maybe I am technically, but I am not a writer by profession. I wrote comedy, which can be harder than drama, but I mostly wrote gags for one-dimensional characters and relied heavily on single-entendre. Fun, but not difficult.

    And I agree, race is easier since it’s more obvious. At least, you think it is until you start watching Henry Louis Gates, Jr’s, shows. But as I said, you are a professional and I am a hack. I know my limits. I hope.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    It's entirely possible to accurately portray the experience of another person, as another person. It's just that you'll probably need a certain amount of research to fill in all the stuff you don't already know, and erase some of the preconceptions you probably started out with.

    You might not know exactly what it's like to be every single member of a minority, but you don't have to--you just need to know what it's like to be your character, who is an individual in their own right.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    You can only write what you know, no matter how good a writer you are. I can think of several times I've been reading books by high profile writers, and they wander into an area about which I know more than they do and "bam" I'm taken right out of the story, and usually can't continue.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Fardragon: True. But I think too many people take that information and conclude "X people who want to write about Y shouldn't do it" instead of "X people who want to write about Y should first learn about Y."
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    @Fardragon: True. But I think too many people take that information and conclude "X people who want to write about Y shouldn't do it" instead of "X people who want to write about Y should first learn about Y."

    Yes, whilst first hand experience is the best way of knowing, research is a good alternative.

    And usually, when an author gets it wrong, It's because the didn't know they where ignorant.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Chidojuan said:

    I guess I have a question about this, hopefully it doesn't go down the Mizhena road, but I didn't really get any reasons as to why he felt diversity was necessary, other than the fact that it adds more interesting stories, which I can agree with.

    @Shandaxx Maybe you could tell me why it matters to you?


    My gaming credo is as follows:

    "Immersion may be highly personal, but gaming joy should be for all."


    I can give you a series of straightforward examples, from which I derive my empathy and support for those whose immersion does not coincide with mine, particularly when not readily available - but whose joy of gaming in my view deserves to be equally profound.


    I am an unconditional high-fantasy PC RPG fan, with tendency to go for a hero that is "alike" - i.e. human female.

    If there were only shooters, my gaming immersion would be materially diminished. No reason for that, surely? There is space and demand for diversity of gaming genres.


    I strongly prefer to play a female CHAR, simply because I feel stronger connection to such a lead hero. M!Hawke of DA:II being the sole exception because of the superbly nuanced voice work. I actually was really thrilled there was a male lead I could immerse with to that extent!

    I am sure some gamers could live with nothing but male leads, but I don't think anyone seriously thinks it will improve gaming. This is, btw - diversity.


    I always roll a human CHAR, unless I multiclass in BG - but on the other hand, I am annoyed with The Elders Scrolls that after Morrowind, the stories have felt really human dominated, even if I want to roll my imperial. Yet, the very idea of removing, say, beastie-races to write more of "my stuff" is preposterous to me.

    But I still think the same courtesy and tolerance must be afforded to in depth CHARs like Hawke, but I think people were more griping about it not being DA:O all again in truth. Very little criticism is levied after at Torment for having but one choice of hero. And Inki was diverse only in a cosmetic sense, IMO.

    Having races, be it within human class or fantasy races - is diversity, and at the very core of "high fantasy" genre from my perspective.


    Romances are seminal to games these days, and again I project my heteronormative or at least male-preferring tendency for my own gaming choices. But once I switched to M!Hawke, Isabela became my preferred romance in DA2, and also male-to-male works for me, like I've rolled male Inki just because I like Dorian so much.

    I really enjoy romances, but I would never be so selfish as to demand, say, Dorian be bi, because it happens to cater for me. That's basic gamer solidarity, I would guess.


    So when I imagine world with nothing but first-person shooter male-CHAR in a universe inhabited by only heterosexual humans in high-tech setting, I would despair when compared to a world with Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls or BG for immersion.


    From mere premise I would not want that for myself, why should I want that for others? I've used very seminal categories for diversity here, but I don't find it difficult to understand why more nuanced ones are wanted too, by our fellow-gamers. It's Jesus's golden rule really: do unto others as you would wish for yourself.

    The best "world writing" does seem to come from nuanced lore which caters a wide array of gaming preferences in any case - but even if I cannot get into same sort of immersion, I still immensely like the idea that others enjoy gaming as much as I do, in their own individual way.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    edited December 2017

    He also said that, while ‘allies are great and all’, he believes the game industry should be prioritising ways to support minorities in getting work within studios and ‘amplifying their voices’. As he put it, ‘We need to change the industry, not just tell it what to do.’
    We absolutely need to turn video games into more of a political battlefield than they already are. I identify as an attack helicopter and I find the lack of my representation appalling, affirmative action hires for attack helicopter developers must be immediately implemented to rectify this unforgivable injustice. And when was the last time we had a transabled demigender otherkin hero? Their voices have been silenced too long. Do the right thing and end this literal oppression. Nothing bad happens when we do this.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    edited December 2017
    I dunno man, I think there were behaviors on BD's end that were bound to cause hostility. The Gamergate quote, for one, and the claim that Baldurs Gate is sexist added a massive amount of fuel to the fire because it felt like it corroborated the narrative the anti-Mizhena crowd was trying to set. I made my account in December of last year, so I wasn't here for the height of the controversy. But from what I know I feel very much like people felt, justifiably, that a culture war was brought to the doorstep of their favorite games.

    I have every desire in the world to see Beamdog succeed in making new things for all of the games that I grew up on and that gave me an everlasting love for the worlds of DnD. I do not want to see old mistakes repeated.

    Cloaking your meaning in enough subtext and metaphor that modern parallels don't slap you in the face > Hamfisted attempts at making a statement about modern day issues/artificial attempts to fill diversity checkboxes is all i'm saying.

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  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    Oh yeah, btw, great article. I especially find the bit interesting about how David wasn't even aware at first that queer characters where even allowed at BioWare.

    Can you guys imagine what BG2 would have looked like if the writing team would have gone all out in that regard back then? On the media drama surrounding that?
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    edited December 2017

    Long threat is long and I wanna go to bed soon, but here is a bit I wanna ad for everyone who is against the idea of "diversity for diversity's sake" (which is something I myself took quite some time to realise):

    Most people can not identify themselves with the average (main) characters in fiction.
    I remember Pokémon Crystal, Harvest Moon 2 and Tomb Raider being insanely important games to me for the simple fact that I could play as a female character in them. I loved Xena and Fantaghiro back in the 90s because they had female main characters who fought and kicked ass but still where seen as beautiful and desirable (sometimes even more so for that). This has been back then and still is hugely validating for me. A lot of kids don't even have these few pieces of media they see themselves or their power fantasies reflected in.

    Think about the child that shows you it's new favourite game and goes "This character is me!" instead of "This character is Cloud Strife/Raziel/Duke Nukem!"

    It is important for kids - and for everyone, actually - to have rolemodels they themselves can identify with. And having the diversity in our media for this across media for all different age groups creates a ripple effect that over the short or long of it will make more people more happy.

    If you can't accept more diversity for your own sake or for that of your fellow adults, sure, but if you can't accept it for the long lasting positive effect it will have on children, then you are a very very pitiful person.

    Pokemon Crystal is my favorite Pokemon game largely because it was the first title in the series where I could choose to play as a female trainer. As a little girl, that had a lasting impact on me.

    Also Suicune. And blue hair. And everything else that made Gold and Silver amazing, but better. :)
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I do remember being especially delighted by Ocarina of Time and the fact that I could play as a blonde-haired, blue-eyed boy who looked just like me and was about the same age. Being represented does feel good.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    @Chidojuan That is an absulutely valid opinion to have.
    There is an important difference between not wanting to have diversity and being fine with whatever.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    edited December 2017




    We absolutely need to turn video games into more of a political battlefield than they already are. I identify as an attack helicopter and I find the lack of my representation appalling, affirmative action hires for attack helicopter developers must be immediately implemented to rectify this unforgivable injustice. And when was the last time we had a transabled demigender otherkin hero? Their voices have been silenced too long. Do the right thing and end this literal oppression. Nothing bad happens when we do this.

    I understand you are trying to be witty, but you just aren't. Your obvious lack of empathy for what others have brought up just make you ignorant. Not funny. Not witty.

    Being white, straight, middle-age(ish), western european and having a good economy makes me the very epitome of the normative guy. The first thing I had to learn was to stop talking and start listening, no matter the topic at hand. When I started to listen, I started to learn, and when I started to learn, I started to understand. With understanding comes acceptance. Try it, you might like it. I consider myself upgraded to a whole new level nowadays.
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    edited December 2017
    When talking about "representation checkboxes", people seem to forget that writing with diversity and representation in mind is to get away from checkboxes that have been in place for decades in movies, video games and literature. Checkboxes like having a heroic male, a female love-interest and a happy ending.

    Just look at Guillermo del Toro's attempt to do a live-action adaptation of Lovecraft's Mountains of Madness. The very reason that nothing came of it is that they couldn't cram those things into a Lovecraft story (of all things!).

    So no, diversity and representation doesn't create bland stories that are only there to please some vocal minority. It's a way to explore so many more stories that just aren't told much today.

    And that's just story reasons. I think @Shandaxx really explained representation wonderfully in the first page of this thread. The only thing I can add from my experience is that I love when I am allowed to see things from someone else's perspective in games. Stories like Dorian's, Mazzy's and Viconia's are great because they show experiences that I've never had and never will fully understand. But that other people (including people close to me) are having every single day.
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  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    Skatan said:




    We absolutely need to turn video games into more of a political battlefield than they already are. I identify as an attack helicopter and I find the lack of my representation appalling, affirmative action hires for attack helicopter developers must be immediately implemented to rectify this unforgivable injustice. And when was the last time we had a transabled demigender otherkin hero? Their voices have been silenced too long. Do the right thing and end this literal oppression. Nothing bad happens when we do this.

    I understand you are trying to be witty, but you just aren't. Your obvious lack of empathy for what others have brought up just make you ignorant. Not funny. Not witty.

    Being white, straight, middle-age(ish), western european and having a good economy makes me the very epitome of the normative guy. The first thing I had to learn was to stop talking and start listening, no matter the topic at hand. When I started to listen, I started to learn, and when I started to learn, I started to understand. With understanding comes acceptance. Try it, you might like it. I consider myself upgraded to a whole new level nowadays.
    Lol.

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    @WarChiefZeke This thread is clearly not the right place for jokes like this. You are being distactful and rude.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @Buttercheese I am pretty sure as for now, that it is just about seeing yourself in the media, not about general deiversity in stories and among characters. Sorry, that's the impression you just gave.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    O_Bruce said:

    Buttercheese I am pretty sure as for now, that it is just about seeing yourself in the media, not about general deiversity in stories and among characters. Sorry, that's the impression you just gave.

    A lot of other media, such as television and movies have made a more gradual move away from women stereotypes. However, these medias are also older and had more time to find audiences when they do.

    Think Rosanne from the 90s. In a world of polished superfluous sitcoms, the grit and humour, plus the fact the lead actors were models, allowed more people to relate to the show on a personal level.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    I am indeed being disrespectful and rude, by quoting a comment being disrespectful and rude, and not taking it seriously. I suppose disrespect and rudeness are issues only when done to members of the tribe. I didn't even say anything.
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