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Elder Scrolls : The dumbing down

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  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    @scriver Nitpicking a little bit but it is possible to finish Blood on the Ice without accusing the wrong person. You still have to jump through all the hoops though, even if you found proof way before.

    There's some evidence left in the game files that a lot of alternative routes were planned but almost everything was scrapped. The amount of cut content in Skyrim is mind-boggling. Oblivion might have been a rushed release but Skyrim goes way above and beyond all that. I blame 11/11/11, this supposedly "omg so epic!!!" release date that makes marketing types all giddy inside.

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    edited December 2016
    I Wonder what @Yamcha and @O_Bruce think of the video.
    Post edited by ShapiroKeatsDarkMage on
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    Skywind's soundtrack sounds great.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNXYrAkUntU
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790

    I Wonder what @Yamcha and @O_Bruce think of the video.

    There are some videos in this topic I didn't watch. Which one you have on your mind?
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    Little side note, been playing Morrowind A LOT recently since I've finished university but am still trying to find a full time job (as opposed to my current part time job).

    The story went from, "This is ok." To "OHHH THIS IS GETTING HYPE!"

    As for game mechanics and game design I'm almost inclined to say Morrowind and Skyrim feel like games from two different franchises. I guess when I play Oblivion I'll find the link between them.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited January 2017
    @Vallmyr: I'd say it's primarily streamlining that explains why Morrowind feels so different from Skyrim. Morrowind's system was incredibly complex, with vast customization options and a quirky, luck-based combat system with a bunch of unique, non-combat-oriented spell effects like Levitate. It also had almost no level scaling to speak of: once you reached a certain level, everything in the game was easy. Until then, certain enemies were absolutely crushing. It also had a vast array of exploits.

    Oblivion changed that, closing various exploits from Intelligence boosting to Levitate kiting to the Soul Trap trick, which lets you give yourself unlimited stat bonuses by creating custom spells. It removed various effects outright, such as Levitate and Slowfall, and eliminated luck-based success rates, and instead made the Luck stat just grant a passive bonus to all skills.

    It also streamlined the equipment system, eliminating pauldrons and greaves, using one slot for gauntlets and gloves, and making clothing and robes mutually exclusive with armor. This cut the number of equipment slots from 15 to 9. Finally, it implemented extreme level scaling, making virtually every part of the game entirely level-based and balancing the game so that a level 1 character could complete every questline with modest difficulty.

    Skyrim struck a balance between Oblivion's level scaling and the flat rates of Morrowind, but it continued Oblivion's tendency towards streamlining. Bethesda removed even more spell effects as well as some skills, eliminated custom spellmaking, only allowed the player to wear one ring at a time, eliminated weapon and armor degradation, and removed all character attributes besides Health, Fatigue, and Magicka. Skyrim also replaced race-based bonuses and removed all classes.

    Altogether, the games have begun much more user-friendly and much less complex. What you're experiencing is not the "dumbing down," in my opinion, but the simplification of an overly complex and wildly unbalanced system.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I would definitely recommend Oblivion. It doesn't have quite the same beauty as Skyrim or the rich texture of Morrowind, but its story is definitely the most engrossing and dramatic. There's nothing quite like marching into the blasted wastes of Oblivion and finding yourself in a world that is so profoundly hostile. It's alien and claustrophobic and oddly distressing on some subconscious level. Like stepping out into the middle of the Arctic or the Sahara, alone... and realizing that you've stumbled into a place where you were never meant to survive.

    But much worse than that. Because you're not alone in Oblivion, and the inhabitants will find you. And you can see from their artwork--from everything--that you are not the first human they have tortured and killed, and you will not be the last.

    Walking through those gates is truly an experience.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    edited January 2017
    I'm actually very excited for Oblivion n_n

    So far Morrowind is definitely making it somewhere on my top 10 games list but that's partially due to the three mods I'm using. The first being MGSO for the graphical updates, second being the Keynari (fox race) race mod, and the last being A Bard's Life mod. Essentially I made the Kitsune Bard guy in my profile picture and have been traveling across Vvardenfell playing songs at taverns and using bardic magic in combat.

    When I play Oblivion I'll look for a fox race and bard mod as well I think. I know there's the Fennec race and Bard mod for Skyrim so when I get there I'll use those. In my trek of playing all The Elder Scrolls games I know I should probably branch out to more playstyles but personality/luck builds are my favorite and if I can play as a fox race that's my jam so definitely going to do it lol.

    Edit: Oh and I am using one more mod for Morrowind, it increases run speed *slightly* as I thought the base speed was much too slow.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Morrowind did definitely not lack level scaling. Sure, the calmer areas didn't level up much, but the savage ones and the dungeons do. The Daedra places in particular, if you go there in the beginning they're just inhabited by scalps and clannfears, but once you reach the upper end of the spectrum there's nothing but dawnmaidens and golden shields or whatever those were called. Sure, it's not Oblivion level egregious where entire species go extinct as you're levelling (and there's no item scaling in MW either), but it's still there and noticeable.
    Vallmyr said:

    the Keynari (fox race)

    But TES already has Fox people.

    ...I mean they're extinct, but still...

    :P
  • therdretherdre Member Posts: 79
    edited January 2017
    While I think in general games are being dumbed down (painfully so with AAA games) I have never viewed Skyrim in this way. If he wanted to make a case of Dragon Age Origins Vs DA:2 and DA:I or mass effect series I'd agree completely. One of the major issues too is that most games are made for consoles and ported over to PC now, where as before they were made for PC then ported to consoles

    Edit: Yes I know I'm a pre-EA Bioware fanboy
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    edited January 2017
    scriver said:

    Morrowind did definitely not lack level scaling. Sure, the calmer areas didn't level up much, but the savage ones and the dungeons do. The Daedra places in particular, if you go there in the beginning they're just inhabited by scalps and clannfears, but once you reach the upper end of the spectrum there's nothing but dawnmaidens and golden shields or whatever those were called. Sure, it's not Oblivion level egregious where entire species go extinct as you're levelling (and there's no item scaling in MW either), but it's still there and noticeable.

    Vallmyr said:

    the Keynari (fox race)

    But TES already has Fox people.

    ...I mean they're extinct, but still...

    :P
    Yeah I know of the Lilmothiit, and they *MIGHT* be extinct. For the purposes of my playthroughs it's either "they are not" or my player character is like the last Dwemer where he has no idea if his people are dead or gone.

    The Keynari race mod adds NPCs across the game (though few in number) so I just imagine that some Lilmothiit live in Morrowind for lore constancy.
    Post edited by Vallmyr on
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    Question: So a lot of quests can be solved, or improved, with speechcraft in Morrowind. Can I play a Speechcraft character in Oblivion and Skyrim or?
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    I'm not sure I'd say a lot of quests can be solved in Morrowind using Speechcraft (though you can certainly gain some information via rumours and such with higher disposition), but the system received an overhaul in Oblivion (though some of the effects remained the same). I'm not sure disposition is even a thing in Skyrim. Speech in Skyrim mainly affects merchants and guards. In Oblivion and Skyrim, I would consider Speechcraft/Speech a stat to ignore, whereas it's one of the first things I tend to try and increase in Morrowind.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    edited January 2017
    Like I noticed in Morrowind there's a few quests where people will ask you to do a thing or get an item for them but if you raise disposition then they waive this and you just complete the quest.

    Edit: Or part of the main quest where you have to raise people's disposition to get information on where the Khajiit informant is. I loved that.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Speechcraft in Oblivion has very little use, and the minigame is easy to do (albeit rather immersion-breaking). Most quests in Oblivion are combat-oriented. Disposition is a thing in Oblivion, but the biggest impact is on store prices.

    In Morrowind, disposition is really important. A lot of quests depend on getting information from people, and a lot of people won't tell you anything if they don't like you, and a LOT of people don't like you. But like in Oblivion, a Charm spell can boost disposition very high at rather low cost, though characters with low Magicka or a low Illusion skill will struggle to cast the spell successfully.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    In Skyrim all speechcraft is good for is getting better rewards and prices. There might be exceptions, but I can't remember any off the top of my head.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017
    When people discuss this topic, it's really nothing much more than wishing there was another Morrowind, though I can't say I blame them. Arena and Daggerfall are really nothing much more than procedurally generated content masking itself as a massive open-world. Oblivion and Skyrim are both very stream-lined. Morrowind was still using the basic D & D combat of die-rolls to determine what was happening in combat. It's a more "hardcore" RPG in most aspects, but it's hardly on the complexity level of many games that came before it.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Also @Vallmyr - I forgot one of the things I was going to write in my last post, which was simply that I didn't mean for that about keynari/liilmotlthueiggl to be addressed to you as the player rather than towards the mod maker. I realise that my lack of targetting made that a whole bit fuzzy ;)
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    edited January 2017
    Well, finished Morrowind finally. Took 114 hours XD.

    In my headcanon my Bard and Ahnassi (the Khajiit Monk you can surprisingly romance) settled down together at the inn I opened during the Bard's Life mod. The Nerevarine is awesome and I enjoyed how you BECOME the Nerevarine as opposed to being born the Nerevarine.

    Going to start Oblivion soon, I know it won't be as good but here's to hoping I enjoy it n_n

    Edit: The Bard mod I was using actually broke during the last dungeon and for some reason I can't use the music sheets anymore. Good thing is I finished that run so that bug won't be a problem since if I play Morrowind again I would start a new character.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    Vallmyr said:

    Well, finished Morrowind finally. Took 114 hours XD.

    In my headcanon my Bard and Ahnassi (the Khajiit Monk you can surprisingly romance) settled down together at the inn I opened during the Bard's Life mod. The Nerevarine is awesome and I enjoyed how you BECOME the Nerevarine as opposed to being born the Nerevarine.

    Going to start Oblivion soon, I know it won't be as good but here's to hoping I enjoy it n_n

    Edit: The Bard mod I was using actually broke during the last dungeon and for some reason I can't use the music sheets anymore. Good thing is I finished that run so that bug won't be a problem since if I play Morrowind again I would start a new character.

    Hope you'll find creative ways of killing the adoring fan.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428

    When people discuss this topic, it's really nothing much more than wishing there was another Morrowind, though I can't say I blame them. Arena and Daggerfall are really nothing much more than procedurally generated content masking itself as a massive open-world. Oblivion and Skyrim are both very stream-lined. Morrowind was still using the basic D & D combat of die-rolls to determine what was happening in combat. It's a more "hardcore" RPG in most aspects, but it's hardly on the complexity level of many games that came before it.

    I Wonder what the new Morrowind expansion for TES Online is gonna bè like.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    The main thing for me about Morrowind is that it probably held my attention longer than any game that's not an MMO. I bought it along with Dungeon Siege (which was fun to mod even if it wasn't a great game) and Neverwinter Nights.

    Anyway, it turned out that my computer should not have been able to run Morrowind, but it did somehow. I had to do odd things to prevent save corruption and keep newly loaded saves from crashing. And I played it for about 300+ hours on one character, played through both of the expansions and was playing through lots of mods before I was done with the game.

    I had a few mods that would boost high level difficulty so the game wasn't a complete cakewalk at higher level. I also didn't exploit alchemy and enchanting as much as I could have, although that was mostly because it bored the heck out of me.

    For a good part of the game I flew everywhere at very high speed, thanks to the Boots of Blinding Speed. I was playing a Breton and thus had 50% magic resistance, and had a very short duration spell that would add another 50% so I could wear the boots without losing any vision.

    Er, anyway. I've never been into a game like that since, although I would say that Skyrim came close - what stopped my playthrough in that was I eventually reached a point where opening any door would cause a crash, scripts weren't running properly - I had to use a console command/cheat to make the end boss on Solstheim function as intended, because otherwise I never would have completed it. Steam tells me I have 272 hours in the game. But I mean, it wasn't Morrowind, not by a long shot. I could and have played Morrowind again, but I keep getting bogged down with further attempts to play through Skyrim.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428

    As long as future titles stay as moddable as they are now, it's not much of a concern. Fans usually find a way to bend Bethesda's shortcomings and satisfy their own needs with the help of the Creation Kit.

    But it would be indeed nice if they'd return to their roots when TES:6 gets released in 2019. Like including SPEARS, which were dearly missed since Oblivion. Or a return of the MEDIUM ARMOR category. Or having permanent Birthsigns instead of switch-able Standing Stones. Or a return of major and minor skills of (custom) classes. Or the creation of your own spells ingame. Or, or, or.

    Also, Daggerfall for life!

    I think Daggerfall needed an ending cutscene after beating the main quest. Maybe its Just me but watching an NPC saying congratulations and then leaving your character to his own devices with nothing left to do feels weird. Also the other thing i didn't like about Daggerfall is the camera. I can't figure how to Control my character's POV with the mouse.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    I need to really try and get into Daggerfall. I've tried a dozen times but usually end up stopping for some reason or another =/
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    Vallmyr said:

    I need to really try and get into Daggerfall. I've tried a dozen times but usually end up stopping for some reason or another =/

    Try watching Zaric Zhakaron videos on Daggerfall. He also made a build guide.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108



    I think Daggerfall needed an ending cutscene after beating the main quest. Maybe its Just me but watching an NPC saying congratulations and then leaving your character to his own devices with nothing left to do feels weird. Also the other thing i didn't like about Daggerfall is the camera. I can't figure how to Control my character's POV with the mouse.

    You have to go into a mode where you can use the mouse to move your POV. It's sort of a menu with arrows arranged around the screen that you have to click on to turn or move.

    It's really suboptimal although I find that once I get used to it it's not so bad. I have to get used to it all over again at times because I keep starting it up every few years and have forgotten the controls.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    Hey, Oblivion Deluxe Edition is on GOG!

    @Vallmyr
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    I still haven't done my oblivion playthrough >_>

    I need to do that soon-ish. I might do another thread asking which mods to use so I can actually start lol
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Vallmyr: I'd go with Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, paired with a slight decrease on the game's difficulty slider. OOO makes the game much more intense and rewards leveling instead of punishing it, as well as introducing some cool new content, but the mod also bumps up the difficulty, enough so that a new player is better off bumping the difficulty slider a little bit to the left.
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