Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Unpopular opinions

1787981838488

Comments

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,319
    edited January 2
    @Wise_Grimwald

    Well, I think one major issue here is that we tend to conflate alignment with personality. There's certainly some degree of association there, but I could imagine any alignment, and indeed, most any character saying the same about that drunk, including traditional paladins. Depending on the individual, there may or may not be some moral judgment involved, but nobody is immune to telling it like it is purely due to alignment.

    As for the EE NPC's, I certainly agree that their quests and stories have more thought and effort put into them than the originals. Of course, that was arguably the main draw of EE to begin with, besides modernizing and standardizing the series, so it's not a surprise. That said, I'm a little ambivalent about a lot of them. Maybe some other time I'll flesh out my personal thoughts, but if anything, they might be overwritten at times.

    Artonatypo_tillyWise_Grimwald
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 858
    edited January 2

    @Wise_Grimwald Well, I think one major issue here is that we tend to conflate alignment with personality.

    ^exactly this.
    And since I have CN Charname right now I gotta ask - how do you people think proper Chaotic Neutral (not Chaotic Evil) behaves?

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,311
    edited January 2
    Most of the EE NPCs don't fit in my parties because of their alignments or personalities (with the exception of Wilson). I really want the SoD NPCs to be added to BG2. M'Khiin, Glint, and Voghiln would all be fun to have around. But put Corwin somewhere so I could glower at her. Bloody Lawfuls.

    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 1,454
    Artona said:

    @Wise_Grimwald Well, I think one major issue here is that we tend to conflate alignment with personality.

    And since I have CN Charname right now I gotta ask - how do you people think proper Chaotic Neutral (not Chaotic Evil) behaves?
    I would say that he/she should randomly do choose good and evil things to do, not necessarily those which are beneficial to progressing in the game.

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 1,203
    @typo_tilly

    I'm with you, Corwin is far from the worst NPC ever: she has a good backstory and great interaction with the other characters but her misalignment is a serious issue as well as her blind devotion to the Flaming Fist and jumping to the conclusion that CHARNAME must have killed Skie even if CHARNAME is a Paladin who swore on his honor never to harm an innocent and showed Corwin time and time again that they will always uphold that code of honor even if it means their death.

    typo_tillyWise_GrimwaldContemplative_Hamster
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,319
    The main thing I really missed with Corwin was why she, clearly a fervent city girl, had come to be a ranger, of all things. That was never addressed as far as I saw, but it demands answering, especially since it would tell us things about her that are probably less than obvious.

    typo_tillyWise_Grimwald
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,311
    Yeah, I'm not usually a fan of lawfuls or paladins. I think she was a well done character. I just don't like her! :D I'd like to put her in a room with Anomen and Jaheira and watch them argue.

    I think Corwin was meant to be a guard-archer rather than a ranger-archer? It was probably just a compromise that archer is a sub-class of ranger. Or she could be a scout on the city outskirts? *-) That could be interesting. :)

    semiticgod
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,007
    @ZaramMaldovar She doesn't necessarily believe charname killed Skie. It depends on player action.

    typo_tilly
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,647
    Artona said:

    @Wise_Grimwald Well, I think one major issue here is that we tend to conflate alignment with personality.

    ^exactly this.
    And since I have CN Charname right now I gotta ask - how do you people think proper Chaotic Neutral (not Chaotic Evil) behaves?
    I think that the CN characters in BG/BG2 explain it well: Safana is selfish to the point of being neutral, but she does feel quite pleased when she desestabilizes order (specially male hierarchy) . She wouldn't kill a paladin just for fun, but she would certainly tease one so she would say she had dominanted one. That's *sane* chaotic neutral, I believe.

    Haer D'Alis is another good example, his belief in entropy and his artistic profession are beyond silly concepts such as goodness or order. He wants to put up a good show.

    @typo_tilly

    I'm with you, Corwin is far from the worst NPC ever: she has a good backstory and great interaction with the other characters but her misalignment is a serious issue as well as her blind devotion to the Flaming Fist and jumping to the conclusion that CHARNAME must have killed Skie even if CHARNAME is a Paladin who swore on his honor never to harm an innocent and showed Corwin time and time again that they will always uphold that code of honor even if it means their death.

    I think that Corwyn in a very bland character. Beamdog's team writes their characters in a very black-and-white way, which makes their lawful npcs(corwyn, rasaad) boring and their evil ones (dorn, baeloth) too theatrical.

    The main thing I really missed with Corwin was why she, clearly a fervent city girl, had come to be a ranger, of all things. That was never addressed as far as I saw, but it demands answering, especially since it would tell us things about her that are probably less than obvious.

    She's a fighter-archer, for sure. Nothing in her background rebeals a ranger tendency.

    Ardul
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,840

    Abi_Dalzim said:

    Actually, I think the real question should be this: is any alignment easy to play well? Lawful good and Lawful neutral become Lawful stupid, Chaotic neutral becomes Chaotic evil, True neutral becomes Chaotic neutral, anything evil becomes Mr. Zsasz on steroids. Maybe Neutral good is hard to screw up, but that might be it.

    This is why I like the Crusader Paladin kit. Being Chaotic Good allows you to use your brain, and for me allows me to play naturally, i.e. as I would in RL. I prefer to play good without having to be PC.

    For instance I was recently criticised for calling a paralytic drunk that I was helping, a drunk. To me that wasn't being judgemental, just objective. For all I know, he could have had very good reasons for getting that drunk, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't drunk.

    Not saying you did this, but there's a difference between calling someone "drunk" and "a drunk". The former just being the state the person is in and the latter can be percieved as being a judgemental remark on a person's traits.

    Personally I don't mind calling out the obvious neutrally, but this could perhaps be why people criticized you.

    ThacoBell
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,319

    The reason Corwin is an Archer ranger instead of a fighter is because sometimes she dreams she's a chaotic good elf.

    This is the thread for these things, so I'll say it: I thought that line was almost as cringey as Minsc's GG reference. Some game mechanics shouldn't be uttered in-character like that, and while good and evil come up all the time, and law and chaos aren't uncommon to talk about either, just putting them together like we do out of character just seems really crass. Shatters immersion.

    lolien
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,840
    Artona said:

    @Wise_Grimwald Well, I think one major issue here is that we tend to conflate alignment with personality.

    ^exactly this.
    And since I have CN Charname right now I gotta ask - how do you people think proper Chaotic Neutral (not Chaotic Evil) behaves?
    For me, I like to play CN as acting on whim and impulse. Instead of being governed by a single purpose or goal, they just do whatever the hell they wanna do at that exact moment, and the choice can be influenced on whatever is happening around them. So if they are surrounded by good and lawful ppl, my CN characters can be influenced by that, or they deliberately do the exact opposite just for fun. I tend to give them lower WIS and RP them as impatient and lacking self-control though, makes it easier for me.

  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,840

    The reason Corwin is an Archer ranger instead of a fighter is because sometimes she dreams she's a chaotic good elf.

    Chaotic good? She's the best depicition of a lawful neutral character in the game IMHO.

    ZaramMaldovar
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,319
    While we're generally talking alignment again, I should say that I think it denotes means rather than ends. Sarevok was Chaotic Evil, but he had clearly defined (kind of) goals that he didn't lose sight of. His evil nature meant he was willing to kill anyone who got in his way, and his chaotic nature made him inclined to follow orders only so long as he had to, and throw people away when they weren't of any more use to him. A CN character could be just as deliberate as that, but would have to be less ruthless in how they did things. Or, they could have no clear goals, but I'd argue a lawful character doesn't need a life mission, either. It's the means that are most clearly delineated by alignment.

    ArdulThacoBell
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 711
    edited January 3
    Skatan said:

    The reason Corwin is an Archer ranger instead of a fighter is because sometimes she dreams she's a chaotic good elf.

    Chaotic good? She's the best depicition of a lawful neutral character in the game IMHO.
    Emphasis on 'dreams', methinks. Like, sometimes I dream I'm a millionaire or a (censored). Doesn't mean it's IRL reality or reflects my conscious values (though Freud might have something to say on the subconscious.)

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,007
    Back on topic: I think Minsc's Gamergate line was hilarious. I'm sad it was taken out.

    SkatanbleusteelMirandellolien
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,099

    and his chaotic nature made him inclined to follow orders only so long as he had to

    Yes. Chaotic's defining trait is that he doesn't acknowledge any authority other than his own, and perhaps that of some trusted friends. Like, "there are only two kinds of opinions - mine and wrong".
    Similar to how evil character can perfectly care for their family and close friends, while for good ones that circle is far larger and includes pretty much everyone.

    ThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,769
    Ardanis said:

    and his chaotic nature made him inclined to follow orders only so long as he had to

    Yes. Chaotic's defining trait is that he doesn't acknowledge any authority other than his own, and perhaps that of some trusted friends. Like, "there are only two kinds of opinions - mine and wrong".
    Similar to how evil character can perfectly care for their family and close friends, while for good ones that circle is far larger and includes pretty much everyone.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Plenty of "good" people have such a large circle they "care" about, in practical terms they do sweet FA for anybody.
    Looking after your own means that somebody else doesn't have to.

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,825

    Ardanis said:

    and his chaotic nature made him inclined to follow orders only so long as he had to

    Yes. Chaotic's defining trait is that he doesn't acknowledge any authority other than his own, and perhaps that of some trusted friends. Like, "there are only two kinds of opinions - mine and wrong".
    Similar to how evil character can perfectly care for their family and close friends, while for good ones that circle is far larger and includes pretty much everyone.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    I prefer the French version, “The road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests.” It means the same thing, but French ecclesiastical history gives their version a certain tartness.
    Plenty of "good" people have such a large circle they "care" about, in practical terms they do sweet FA for anybody.
    Looking after your own means that somebody else doesn't have to.
    Oddly enough, I was talking about this with a couple people I know from working for local Libertarian candidates. That would take us down a winding road with lots of traps, pitfalls, and life insurance salesmen, so let’s avoid it; suffice to say, I agree 100% with this, based on empirical evidence.

    Pokota
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,199
    Shorty saves are overrated.

    Skatanhistamiini
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,199
    Aerakar said:

    Blasphemy! :)

    Sorry, can't hear you from up here.

    StummvonBordwehrAerakarlolien
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,199
    edited January 4
    Artona said:

    Raduziel said:

    Shorty saves are overrated.

    Tell that to Joe Pesci. ;)
    Joe Pesci is not a dwarf. He's a HalfOrcBerserker.zip

    ArctodusAerakarArtonalolien
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,611
    Ardanis said:

    All paladins should be pretty blonde girls with blue eyes, riding an armored Yamaha bike with a magic sword in hand. And the D&D rules can object all their want.


    @Ardanis those eyes look green to me...

    Ardanislolien
Sign In or Register to comment.