Actually, I'm completely opposite to being disappointed in this forum.
Yes, we have had and still have a wave of negativity coming from many forumites, the majority of whom indeed joined with the release of SoD.
Yes, we have a lot of site violations each day (even each hour).
But the forum has expressed its strength, not weakness, in being able to defend against it. There're a lot of kind and intelligent people who express their views and offer a striking difference to one-off comments that happen here and there.
April, 2016, wasn't the best place to stay here, this is for sure. But it in the same time shows that the community of BG fans, its core, the ones who indeed care for BG and IE games in general, can share their opinions in the right way, without violating any rule possible, and can give constructive critique and general advice.
Yes, I think it's fair to say that most of the provocatively negative threads are started by people who are not regulars on these forums, and one suspects they are the same small group of people opening accounts under alternative aliases (patterns of poor spelling and grammar can be something of a give-away).
I think these forums are pretty good, I appreciate the efforts from the mods they are very understanding and kind. But it does feel like they are terribly swamped right now. When an army of pissbabies swarm your forums it's really hard to know what to do. The problem is when the pissy reactionaries like the pissbabies we got a week ago swarm they are not here in good faith. It's an "Op", a "Mission." You know those creepy people who play so much games they think that is what reality is like? It's that kind of pissbabies.
They are not here showcasing opinions but reactionary propaganda. Most often they follow a script from a MRM forum or subReddit where they've spent hours rallying eachother up. That is why you get a million threads all sounding the same and often worded the same while containing the same MRA buzzwords. They are here in a mass effort to bully the devs into doing what they want while being very liberal in the usage of the word "censorship." That is why the same pissbabies who screamed "SENSORSHEEP!" over the devs *choosing* to change the pose of one female character in Overwatch are now celebrating that Beamdog got *harassed* into changing Minsc's ethics line. (which would be *actual* censorship, in the traditional sense) It's not about "sansercheap" or "freeze peach". Or about any ethics in any kind of journalism. It's about them, and their biases and gatekeeping. Real pissbabies.
Honestly these forums are pretty darn great. And it's not the first time this kind of thing has happened, and most likely not the last. I remember the pissabies when Hexxat was introduced. Hell there was even pissbabies pissing all over because you can woe Dorn regardless of gender. They start to leave once they find something else to be outraged about, the problem is when they latch onto an individual. They've harassed so many great women out of this industry and scared away so many great-women-to-be.
And it was all useless because the real controversy was always [spoiler=SoD plot] that you could not go adventuring with Imoen again! *sniff* *snivel* Imoen is our BFF and she sits the whole thing out to learn magic. And then gets magic missile as her best starting spell in B2... not worth it. *cries* [/spoiler]
And it was all useless because the real controversy was always that you could not go adventuring with Imoen again! *sniff* *snivel* Imoen is our BFF and she sits the whole thing out to learn magic. And then gets magic missile as her best starting spell in B2... not worth it. *cries*
I think the amount of people I saw in here who rose up united, and spoke out against prejudice, exclusiveness and hatred was one of the finest moments of these forums I've seen. Sure it was ugly, as all battles worth fighting for are. But there was beauty as well; seeing both new and old forumites speak out strongly and eloquently against the onslaught of haters joining to propagate their agenda gave me hope for humanity; that civilization doesn't end where the internet start.
Listening to you guys has given me faith in these forums once again. I want to apologise for my first comment on starting this thread. My frustration had been building over a week or so and I finally blew (I think Frodo dropped his Smeagol in at that very moment).
Thanks also to @TrentOster for his personal response and all his, @Dee and Beamdog's hard work in general.
I think the amount of people I saw in here who rose up united, and spoke out against prejudice, exclusiveness and hatred was one of the finest moments of these forums I've seen. Sure it was ugly, as all battles worth fighting for are. But there was beauty as well; seeing both new and old forumites speak out strongly and eloquently against the onslaught of haters joining to propagate their agenda gave me hope for humanity; that civilization doesn't end where the internet start.
For me too! The biggest issue with "ignore the trolls" is that it leaves everyone who is not an arsehair silent. So all we hear are the outraged babies. And it makes it seems like that vocal minority is actually the majority. Which makes things seem very hopeless...
But for the same reasons why there will never be an exclusive drinking fountain for only white people in schools again (yep that was a thing, not too long ago either...), there will never be a time where every single game is made for that minority, because we are moving forward. The duberos know it, which is why they try to fight it so violently. I could go into the sociological reasons why.. but I am already making my posts way too long.
But trust me, it's going to get better. Sometimes it will get worse before it does, but it will. I believe so fullheartedly.
Every second post is about Mizhena (whether good or bad). People, this game is bigger than Mizhena so let's just forget him and move on!!
I'm not disappointed in the forum. I actually have a new-found appreciation for what Dee and the mods do to keep discussions civil. They received a real test these past two weeks.
I'm a little disappointed that many new posters came just to use the forum as a battleground over social issues. The anti-trans people are the worst, but I'm none too fond of the people on either side who only post to argue and not post about the game itself. It became one of those situations where people don't seek to persuade, but instead try to tweak the other side. I hate those kind of conversations (though we've probably all been there once or twice). Did get some cool new posters like Diogenes and gendernihilismgirdle though, so it wasn't a total waste. Most of the regular forumites were also classy. I just miss Shandyr a lot.
Actually, I think the forum has been pretty ok. Compare it to the steam forum which is an absolute mess. Most of the discussions here have been pretty courteous and at least somewhat on point, with people actually responding to each others points. I's true that the posts have been more towards the meta of the politics rather than the game content itself, but that is still something worth discussing. There are a lot of people here that I vehemently disagree with, but at least here we can have those conversations.
That struck me as odd too. Especially when they're trying to tell people not to discuss, to then add fuel to the flames themselves is a bit off.
To give the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume it's an honest mistake as a language thing. Some languages, such as Chinese don't use gender specific pronouns so people from those countries often use "he" inappropriately. That might not be the case, but it would be a really strange way to try to bring peace here if not.
And there are so many others I am quite fond of here and have omitted because I am old and my brain is tired I hope they know who they are and can please forgive me.
And then the first week of April was I so revved up to share insights, experiences and humor, I came to these forums and it felt like a punch to the gut. The toxicity, the anger , the ignorance, I must admit, for a few days it effected my enjoyment of Version2 and SoD. I couldn't play it. My daily habit of visiting these forums came to an abrupt end.
But I came back, I heard from new voices, some were old but I hadn't really noticed them before. Thank you @Diogenes42 , @joluv@illathid@Purudaya@TheWhitefire and several others. For a while I felt as if I was alone in the way I felt, in my enjoyment of the Baldur's Gate series, in my comfortable retreat from the daily grind with faceless associates whom I no longer considered strangers. It's strange how visiting these social sites you can see someone's post whom you have never met or had a real conversation with , but you feel like you know them and they are your friend. Reading their posts or getting a simple agreement, or a like ,can bring a smile to your day.
I hope my tagging of 'Forumites' didn't offend any by inclusion nor those who for brevity's and poor memory's sake I may have excluded. It is not my intention to fish for likes and agreements , but rather it was important for me to let you know, and I don't think I'm alone in this, that you are all part of my daily experience and specifically a part of my day that I choose to enjoy.
I come back to these forums and it's getting better. I don't scroll through the threads with dread anymore, it's good to be back!
Over at Steam it has not been pretty either (with people hiding their profiles so they would appear as level 0 steam account users where you cannot check whether they have played these games via Steam at all). Surviving it was less of a problem. Avoiding boredom has been harder. They've opened new threads for always the same old attacks while going in circles in the very long threads with off-topic derailings, high aggressiveness, personal attacks and hatred. That has really given the impression of a troll horde running wild. And several of them under the affect of Blindness and Confusion spells or something like that.
Finding myself addressed as "Ms Scott" has been a highlight.
Over at Steam it has not been pretty either (with people hiding their profiles so they would appear as level 0 steam account users where you cannot check whether they have played these games via Steam at all). Surviving it was less of a problem. Avoiding boredom has been harder. They've opened new threads for always the same old attacks while going in circles in the very long threads with off-topic derailings, high aggressiveness, personal attacks and hatred. That has really given the impression of a troll horde running wild. And several of them under the affect of Blindness and Confusion spells or something like that.
Finding myself addressed as "Ms Scott" has been a highlight.
The difference between a well moderated site and a poor one. I never visit steam forums for this very reason.
I agree, with time things will return to their happier state. The bugs are getting fixed at a rapid rate. No need to pontificate. Soon enough everything will be great.
-Trent ;-)
No rhyming allowed! Only chaos and discord allowed here!
I hate that moderators on the Steam forums often don't make multiple forum sections. I like helping people but if their not gonna separate the topics seeking help from the (mostly) crap then I'm not gonna bother helping anyone there lol.
I got really scared for a while. I remember reading through hours worth of tense discussions until eventually I closed my computer, lay down on my bed for a while, and angsted to my boyfriend about it. I had tears spring to my eyes when I asked him, "Why do people have to be so mean?" I even had a nightmare that my wall got bombarded overnight by GamerGate trolls who saw my profile picture (because that actually is me) and decided to attack me for being a woman and defending Amber Scott. Nightmares don't make sense, guys. I knew in my head that this probably wasn't going to happen, but my heart was still terrified that it might.
Point is, my favorite place on the internet was suddenly unsafe.
After that, I stayed away for a couple days. I only visited the threads I liked, and mainly to check on the Castle Greyhawk RP so I didn't miss anything.
But slowly, I think things are getting back to normal. We've had some great new people join the forums, not just portraitless trolls foaming at the mouth. I'm not so afraid to peek at the more serious discussions anymore, knowing that there will be someone who will stand up to the hatred and ignorance inside.
It's been a hard week. Let's make the next one better.
Not gonna lie, I was a mess for days because of the drama ... was crying like a little baby after that twitter thing happened (that was luckily deleted by now), because I was scared that this might lead to Beamdog losing the license to make more DnD games and completely ruin the good name of Baldur's Gate ...
For the most part I tried to stay out of it because I didn't agree with either of the sides and because imo the reason for the drama was way too minor. So I just kept on drawing and drawing, hoping to at least give the devs a little bit of positivity back.
I am just glad it's finally over ...
A big thanks to everyone who kept up a positive/ neutral attitude throughout the ordeal.
@Skarose - good post mate. We'll just have to wait for a bit for the flame wars and controversy to die off and we can get back to standard laid-back experience share, silly jokes and mummyfied @Anduin trying to conquer the world...one vegetable at a time.
I mean, come on... some of us have been loyal to BG franchise (and others) for 15 years or so...we can do this.
Comments
Yes, we have had and still have a wave of negativity coming from many forumites, the majority of whom indeed joined with the release of SoD.
Yes, we have a lot of site violations each day (even each hour).
But the forum has expressed its strength, not weakness, in being able to defend against it. There're a lot of kind and intelligent people who express their views and offer a striking difference to one-off comments that happen here and there.
April, 2016, wasn't the best place to stay here, this is for sure. But it in the same time shows that the community of BG fans, its core, the ones who indeed care for BG and IE games in general, can share their opinions in the right way, without violating any rule possible, and can give constructive critique and general advice.
They are not here showcasing opinions but reactionary propaganda. Most often they follow a script from a MRM forum or subReddit where they've spent hours rallying eachother up. That is why you get a million threads all sounding the same and often worded the same while containing the same MRA buzzwords. They are here in a mass effort to bully the devs into doing what they want while being very liberal in the usage of the word "censorship." That is why the same pissbabies who screamed "SENSORSHEEP!" over the devs *choosing* to change the pose of one female character in Overwatch are now celebrating that Beamdog got *harassed* into changing Minsc's ethics line. (which would be *actual* censorship, in the traditional sense) It's not about "sansercheap" or "freeze peach". Or about any ethics in any kind of journalism. It's about them, and their biases and gatekeeping. Real pissbabies.
Honestly these forums are pretty darn great. And it's not the first time this kind of thing has happened, and most likely not the last. I remember the pissabies when Hexxat was introduced. Hell there was even pissbabies pissing all over because you can woe Dorn regardless of gender. They start to leave once they find something else to be outraged about, the problem is when they latch onto an individual. They've harassed so many great women out of this industry and scared away so many great-women-to-be.
And it was all useless because the real controversy was always
[spoiler=SoD plot]
that you could not go adventuring with Imoen again! *sniff* *snivel* Imoen is our BFF and she sits the whole thing out to learn magic. And then gets magic missile as her best starting spell in B2... not worth it. *cries*
[/spoiler]
We are singing from the same hymn sheet.
Thanks also to @TrentOster for his personal response and all his, @Dee and Beamdog's hard work in general.
A little off topic, but I'm curious a little, where do I fall on the two sides of that spectrum that you are speaking of?
On that note, what the -beep- did I miss?
But for the same reasons why there will never be an exclusive drinking fountain for only white people in schools again (yep that was a thing, not too long ago either...), there will never be a time where every single game is made for that minority, because we are moving forward. The duberos know it, which is why they try to fight it so violently. I could go into the sociological reasons why.. but I am already making my posts way too long.
But trust me, it's going to get better. Sometimes it will get worse before it does, but it will. I believe so fullheartedly.
Friends show their love in times of trouble, not in happiness.
Euripides
I'm not disappointed in the forum. I actually have a new-found appreciation for what Dee and the mods do to keep discussions civil. They received a real test these past two weeks.
I'm a little disappointed that many new posters came just to use the forum as a battleground over social issues. The anti-trans people are the worst, but I'm none too fond of the people on either side who only post to argue and not post about the game itself. It became one of those situations where people don't seek to persuade, but instead try to tweak the other side. I hate those kind of conversations (though we've probably all been there once or twice). Did get some cool new posters like Diogenes and gendernihilismgirdle though, so it wasn't a total waste. Most of the regular forumites were also classy. I just miss Shandyr a lot.
To give the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume it's an honest mistake as a language thing. Some languages, such as Chinese don't use gender specific pronouns so people from those countries often use "he" inappropriately. That might not be the case, but it would be a really strange way to try to bring peace here if not.
Years ago it was the kind informed encouragement of @Oxford_Guy . Soon after I joined it was the thumbs up from @bengoshi. The ever present @lolien and @booinyoureyes . The discussions with @typo_tilly Then the quirky good-natured creativity displayed by @Nonnahswriter and @Buttercheese. There was the forum kinship I felt with @Skatan , @Cheesebelly @Grum @BillyYank @Eadwyn_G8keeper @Artemius_I . The ever interesting post of @shawne and @OzzyBotkins . The Humor of @Shandyr . The musings of @Southpaw and @Dragonspear @sarevok57 .
And there are so many others I am quite fond of here and have omitted because I am old and my brain is tired I hope they know who they are and can please forgive me.
And then the first week of April was I so revved up to share insights, experiences and humor, I came to these forums and it felt like a punch to the gut. The toxicity, the anger , the ignorance, I must admit, for a few days it effected my enjoyment of Version2 and SoD. I couldn't play it. My daily habit of visiting these forums came to an abrupt end.
But I came back, I heard from new voices, some were old but I hadn't really noticed them before. Thank you @Diogenes42 , @joluv @illathid @Purudaya @TheWhitefire and several others. For a while I felt as if I was alone in the way I felt, in my enjoyment of the Baldur's Gate series, in my comfortable retreat from the daily grind with faceless associates whom I no longer considered strangers. It's strange how visiting these social sites you can see someone's post whom you have never met or had a real conversation with , but you feel like you know them and they are your friend. Reading their posts or getting a simple agreement, or a like ,can bring a smile to your day.
I hope my tagging of 'Forumites' didn't offend any by inclusion nor those who for brevity's and poor memory's sake I may have excluded. It is not my intention to fish for likes and agreements , but rather it was important for me to let you know, and I don't think I'm alone in this, that you are all part of my daily experience and specifically a part of my day that I choose to enjoy.
I come back to these forums and it's getting better. I don't scroll through the threads with dread anymore, it's good to be back!
Edit: and I agree with @krotos and @grum, that pic is dope!
Finding myself addressed as "Ms Scott" has been a highlight.
I never visit steam forums for this very reason.
(But seriously, thank you >.>)
Point is, my favorite place on the internet was suddenly unsafe.
After that, I stayed away for a couple days. I only visited the threads I liked, and mainly to check on the Castle Greyhawk RP so I didn't miss anything.
But slowly, I think things are getting back to normal. We've had some great new people join the forums, not just portraitless trolls foaming at the mouth.
It's been a hard week. Let's make the next one better.
For the most part I tried to stay out of it because I didn't agree with either of the sides and because imo the reason for the drama was way too minor. So I just kept on drawing and drawing, hoping to at least give the devs a little bit of positivity back.
I am just glad it's finally over ...
A big thanks to everyone who kept up a positive/ neutral attitude throughout the ordeal.
We'll just have to wait for a bit for the flame wars and controversy to die off and we can get back to standard laid-back experience share, silly jokes and mummyfied @Anduin trying to conquer the world...one vegetable at a time.
I mean, come on... some of us have been loyal to BG franchise (and others) for 15 years or so...we can do this.