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Baldur's Gate Logic

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  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 868
    edited August 2019
    ¿In a ...

    I was a thayan slayer like you, but I took an arrow on the knee.
    Maybe I am the thayan slayer (not the guy that actually killed some thayan mages in front of you) and I do not know about it?
    Let me guess... someone stole your sweet crimson drink of laughter and passion?
    You know I could have gone into that Sanctuary and killed all those Thayan types, I was uh... just sick that day
    Disrespect the law and you disrespect me.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa! Watch the magic!
    No lollygaggin´

    ...kind of way?
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,309
    edited August 2019
    Chronicler wrote: »
    From what I understand Red Wizards as a whole aren't evil.

    The wiki doesn't flat out say that they are evil but most if not all of the leaders are evil and the groups goals and actions as a whole are textbook LE.

    So maybe it's CN of me to say this but killing a self professed member of a very powerful group assaulting a woman innocent of any (major) crimes other than simply being a Wild Mage which she has no control over and his two mercenary buddies doesn't count as murder in my book.

    Now killing Neera? THAT would be murder; at least from a normal persons perspective. From the Red Wizards perspective it would be an execution.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    Chronicler wrote: »
    From what I understand Red Wizards as a whole aren't evil.

    " the Red Wizards were the notorious and nefarious spellcasting ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Slavers, demonologists, and magical experimenters, the Red Wizards were much feared by most of Faerûn.<...>

    received support from demons, devils, and drow. Amongst those who opposed them were the Witches of Rashemen, the Seven Sisters and their allies, the goodly Harpers, and even the Zhentarim, who disliked the Wizards encroaching on their territory." https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Wizards_of_Thay

    And Thay is a Lawful Evil/Neutral Evil Magocracy...
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    Chronicler wrote: »
    From what I understand Red Wizards as a whole aren't evil.

    " the Red Wizards were the notorious and nefarious spellcasting ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Slavers, demonologists, and magical experimenters, the Red Wizards were much feared by most of Faerûn.<...>

    received support from demons, devils, and drow. Amongst those who opposed them were the Witches of Rashemen, the Seven Sisters and their allies, the goodly Harpers, and even the Zhentarim, who disliked the Wizards encroaching on their territory." https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Wizards_of_Thay

    And Thay is a Lawful Evil/Neutral Evil Magocracy...

    the red wizard in Storm of Zehir seemed like an alright chap
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    *snip*... other than simply being a Wild Mage which she has no control over and his two mercenary buddies doesn't count as murder in my book.

    Speaking of which; To be a mage takes study and high INT, it's choice you make. Wild mages have no control of their powers yet their power comes from studying the arcane arts. Sorcerers have innate magic depending on CHA, it's something you are born with.

    Wild mages should just have been wild sorcerers instead. Or maybe all sorcerers should have had the 'wild magic' effect and Wild Mages just been removed.

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,309
    @Skatan
    Or make Wild Mage a separate class altogether. I love Wild Mages and I'd hate to get rid of the concept.

    Neera is one of my favorite characters and the romance option I resonate the most with in real life. She's socially inept and awkward just like me and clearly a great person if somewhat flawed and damaged. Also not unlike me.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Skatan If I recall correctly, in P&P, wild mages aren't dopey accidental casters. They are the mathematicians of the arcane world, using complex formula to force effects out of magic that shouldn't be possible. They are supposed to be super intelligent manipulators of formula, like doing calculous while casting a spell to force a level 9 spell out of a level 2 spell slot. Or to force OTHER mages to wild surge.

    @mlnevese knows better than I do.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    @ZaramMaldovar A class of its own wouldn't change the fact the their in-game representation suits spontaneous casting a lot more than spell slots, hence a sorceress sub-class/kit would suit them just fine.

    @ThacoBell Ah, now THAT makes a lot more sense! Their innate wild surge on other spells though.. There's probably a great reason for that as well then?
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Skatan Well, if they mess up an equation things can go really wrong. But wild mages have a lot more tools at their disposal than in game to mitigate/take advantage of surges.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    edited August 2019
    @Skatan it's a very old post of mine. Actually that's why I don't like the way Wild mages were characterized in the game. Instead of the insane/genius they were, they became lazy wizards who don't bother to control their magic.

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/93459/#Comment_93459
    Post edited by mlnevese on
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    @mlnevese Thanks, awesome read! Now I understand why they are mages and not sorcs. The games' version is an odd implementation though, doesn't at all feel like what you describe in your post.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    edited August 2019
    @Skatan Other wizards thought wild mages were insane for trying to break the laws of magic. The fact it worked only made their fame worse.
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,391
    My understanding is that in 2nd edition, Wild Mages were Mages, and as such their powers were a matter of study.

    In newer editions Wild Mages are sorcerers though, with innate, inborn powers. Neera's questline seems to be written under the new lore, even though the games were originally designed under the old lore, which is why her gameplay meshes weirdly with her story.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    Wild mages were basically erased from reality in 3rd edition and later maybe because they finally noticed they were actually too powerful.

    A smart player could easily defeat other mages levels higher just by jamming the other casters ability to cast while suffering no consequences himself
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    Just as an aside, we have a Chaos Sorcerer (wild mage sorcerers) mod here on BD by @argent77 . It also gives the option to make Neera a chaos sorcerer instead of her usual wild mage class.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    Yes, it feels like the old folks retirement home :)
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    Ballad wrote: »
    Continuing with the themes of law and economy...

    Reputation of 1 carries a +900% price adjustment in stores.

    Can you imagine being a merchant and having Charname, the loathsome, psychopathic mass-murderer walk into your store. This dude is known for having absolutely no regard for human life whatsoever, killing whoever stands in his way for whatever miniscule reason. You know you're lucky to escape the encounter with your life.

    Does your mind go to: "What a bad boy, this Charname! To teach him a lesson, I'm going to charge him 9 times the regular price - we'll see what he thinks of that"?

    shopkeeper alive; all goods are easily available

    shopkeeper dead; all goods suddenly vanish forever
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,309
    In the games defense Entar Silvershield and Duke Eltan were poisoned and the former died from it. Give someone the right poison and it doesn't matter how high their level is.

    And fill a room with hasted Greater Dopppegangers and a rusty fighter and unprepared mage can be killed quickly. Give them a room full of Flaming Fist guards and Charnames Party and the table is much more level.

    I see no real flaws here.
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,391
    jmerry wrote: »
    An unprepared mage and fighter, sure. But by then, Belt and Liia have every reason to be prepared. They've read Scar's report and know there are doppelgangers around, working for some nefarious purpose. They know that someone's out to kill the dukes. The coronation, being an event that brings together two dukes and the new hopeful, is an obvious opportunity for their enemies. The guest list is substantial, and there are plenty of chances to replace some of them with doppelgangers.

    So then, Belt brings his best armor and weapon, Liia prepares a defensive sequencer and a selection of combat spells, and they station a number of guards in the room. The fake nobles attack and are put down, with maybe a few guard casualties.

    And then Sarevok blames it all on Amn and starts the war he wanted anyway. Huh, looks like the party was needed after all. The plot works just fine if the dukes are prepared and can defend themselves.

    I think you're over-estimating the degree to which established nobility does anything for themselves.

    They likely haven't haven't had to lift a finger in decades. They have people for this sort of stuff.

    His Best Weapons and armor, Sequencers, man, they probably wouldn't even know where to find that stuff anymore. They've been living high on the hog.

    Nobility can achieve great skill. They can afford all the best teachers. They have all the time in the world to train. They may even fight in battles, treating it as little more than a fanciful game, with their men there to keep them safe throughout.

    Ultimately though they're too reliant on a lifestyle where the poor wait on them hand and foot. When their servants turn against them, they are defenseless.
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,309
    @jmerry
    I see your point but I think we can at least agree that Duke Silvershield and Duke Eltan being taken out of the picture is reasonable needs so further explanation, yes?

    As far as Belt and Duke Janneth go, they are just further proof that all NPCs outside of the party are automatically subject to video game NPC levels of convenient lack of intelligence.
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,391
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Baldur's Gate Logic: Half-orcs can have 1 Intelligence--the same Intelligence score you could see on a skunk or a beetle or a hippo or some other animal--and still speak Common in complete sentences.

    If I recall one of the other Infinity Engine games has you speaking broken English if you're below a certain score, though I don't know if they have special dialogues reflecting an INT score as low as 1.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Baldur's Gate Logic: Half-orcs can have 1 Intelligence--the same Intelligence score you could see on a skunk or a beetle or a hippo or some other animal--and still speak Common in complete sentences.

    I think that person would be far less intelligent than a tardigrade. Survive on the moon without any space-suit... who needs intelligence?
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