I was a thayan slayer like you, but I took an arrow on the knee.
Maybe I am the thayan slayer (not the guy that actually killed some thayan mages in front of you) and I do not know about it?
Let me guess... someone stole your sweet crimson drink of laughter and passion?
You know I could have gone into that Sanctuary and killed all those Thayan types, I was uh... just sick that day
Disrespect the law and you disrespect me.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Watch the magic!
No lollygaggin´
From what I understand Red Wizards as a whole aren't evil.
The wiki doesn't flat out say that they are evil but most if not all of the leaders are evil and the groups goals and actions as a whole are textbook LE.
So maybe it's CN of me to say this but killing a self professed member of a very powerful group assaulting a woman innocent of any (major) crimes other than simply being a Wild Mage which she has no control over and his two mercenary buddies doesn't count as murder in my book.
Now killing Neera? THAT would be murder; at least from a normal persons perspective. From the Red Wizards perspective it would be an execution.
From what I understand Red Wizards as a whole aren't evil.
" the Red Wizards were the notorious and nefarious spellcasting ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Slavers, demonologists, and magical experimenters, the Red Wizards were much feared by most of Faerûn.<...>
received support from demons, devils, and drow. Amongst those who opposed them were the Witches of Rashemen, the Seven Sisters and their allies, the goodly Harpers, and even the Zhentarim, who disliked the Wizards encroaching on their territory." https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Wizards_of_Thay
And Thay is a Lawful Evil/Neutral Evil Magocracy...
From what I understand Red Wizards as a whole aren't evil.
" the Red Wizards were the notorious and nefarious spellcasting ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Slavers, demonologists, and magical experimenters, the Red Wizards were much feared by most of Faerûn.<...>
received support from demons, devils, and drow. Amongst those who opposed them were the Witches of Rashemen, the Seven Sisters and their allies, the goodly Harpers, and even the Zhentarim, who disliked the Wizards encroaching on their territory." https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Wizards_of_Thay
And Thay is a Lawful Evil/Neutral Evil Magocracy...
the red wizard in Storm of Zehir seemed like an alright chap
Reputation of 1 carries a +900% price adjustment in stores.
Can you imagine being a merchant and having Charname, the loathsome, psychopathic mass-murderer walk into your store. This dude is known for having absolutely no regard for human life whatsoever, killing whoever stands in his way for whatever miniscule reason. You know you're lucky to escape the encounter with your life.
Does your mind go to: "What a bad boy, this Charname! To teach him a lesson, I'm going to charge him 9 times the regular price - we'll see what he thinks of that"?
*snip*... other than simply being a Wild Mage which she has no control over and his two mercenary buddies doesn't count as murder in my book.
Speaking of which; To be a mage takes study and high INT, it's choice you make. Wild mages have no control of their powers yet their power comes from studying the arcane arts. Sorcerers have innate magic depending on CHA, it's something you are born with.
Wild mages should just have been wild sorcerers instead. Or maybe all sorcerers should have had the 'wild magic' effect and Wild Mages just been removed.
@Skatan
Or make Wild Mage a separate class altogether. I love Wild Mages and I'd hate to get rid of the concept.
Neera is one of my favorite characters and the romance option I resonate the most with in real life. She's socially inept and awkward just like me and clearly a great person if somewhat flawed and damaged. Also not unlike me.
@Skatan If I recall correctly, in P&P, wild mages aren't dopey accidental casters. They are the mathematicians of the arcane world, using complex formula to force effects out of magic that shouldn't be possible. They are supposed to be super intelligent manipulators of formula, like doing calculous while casting a spell to force a level 9 spell out of a level 2 spell slot. Or to force OTHER mages to wild surge.
@ZaramMaldovar A class of its own wouldn't change the fact the their in-game representation suits spontaneous casting a lot more than spell slots, hence a sorceress sub-class/kit would suit them just fine.
@ThacoBell Ah, now THAT makes a lot more sense! Their innate wild surge on other spells though.. There's probably a great reason for that as well then?
@Skatan Well, if they mess up an equation things can go really wrong. But wild mages have a lot more tools at their disposal than in game to mitigate/take advantage of surges.
@Skatan it's a very old post of mine. Actually that's why I don't like the way Wild mages were characterized in the game. Instead of the insane/genius they were, they became lazy wizards who don't bother to control their magic.
@mlnevese Thanks, awesome read! Now I understand why they are mages and not sorcs. The games' version is an odd implementation though, doesn't at all feel like what you describe in your post.
My understanding is that in 2nd edition, Wild Mages were Mages, and as such their powers were a matter of study.
In newer editions Wild Mages are sorcerers though, with innate, inborn powers. Neera's questline seems to be written under the new lore, even though the games were originally designed under the old lore, which is why her gameplay meshes weirdly with her story.
Just as an aside, we have a Chaos Sorcerer (wild mage sorcerers) mod here on BD by @argent77 . It also gives the option to make Neera a chaos sorcerer instead of her usual wild mage class.
Reputation of 1 carries a +900% price adjustment in stores.
Can you imagine being a merchant and having Charname, the loathsome, psychopathic mass-murderer walk into your store. This dude is known for having absolutely no regard for human life whatsoever, killing whoever stands in his way for whatever miniscule reason. You know you're lucky to escape the encounter with your life.
Does your mind go to: "What a bad boy, this Charname! To teach him a lesson, I'm going to charge him 9 times the regular price - we'll see what he thinks of that"?
shopkeeper alive; all goods are easily available
shopkeeper dead; all goods suddenly vanish forever
In the games defense Entar Silvershield and Duke Eltan were poisoned and the former died from it. Give someone the right poison and it doesn't matter how high their level is.
And fill a room with hasted Greater Dopppegangers and a rusty fighter and unprepared mage can be killed quickly. Give them a room full of Flaming Fist guards and Charnames Party and the table is much more level.
An unprepared mage and fighter, sure. But by then, Belt and Liia have every reason to be prepared. They've read Scar's report and know there are doppelgangers around, working for some nefarious purpose. They know that someone's out to kill the dukes. The coronation, being an event that brings together two dukes and the new hopeful, is an obvious opportunity for their enemies. The guest list is substantial, and there are plenty of chances to replace some of them with doppelgangers.
So then, Belt brings his best armor and weapon, Liia prepares a defensive sequencer and a selection of combat spells, and they station a number of guards in the room. The fake nobles attack and are put down, with maybe a few guard casualties.
And then Sarevok blames it all on Amn and starts the war he wanted anyway. Huh, looks like the party was needed after all. The plot works just fine if the dukes are prepared and can defend themselves.
An unprepared mage and fighter, sure. But by then, Belt and Liia have every reason to be prepared. They've read Scar's report and know there are doppelgangers around, working for some nefarious purpose. They know that someone's out to kill the dukes. The coronation, being an event that brings together two dukes and the new hopeful, is an obvious opportunity for their enemies. The guest list is substantial, and there are plenty of chances to replace some of them with doppelgangers.
So then, Belt brings his best armor and weapon, Liia prepares a defensive sequencer and a selection of combat spells, and they station a number of guards in the room. The fake nobles attack and are put down, with maybe a few guard casualties.
And then Sarevok blames it all on Amn and starts the war he wanted anyway. Huh, looks like the party was needed after all. The plot works just fine if the dukes are prepared and can defend themselves.
I think you're over-estimating the degree to which established nobility does anything for themselves.
They likely haven't haven't had to lift a finger in decades. They have people for this sort of stuff.
His Best Weapons and armor, Sequencers, man, they probably wouldn't even know where to find that stuff anymore. They've been living high on the hog.
Nobility can achieve great skill. They can afford all the best teachers. They have all the time in the world to train. They may even fight in battles, treating it as little more than a fanciful game, with their men there to keep them safe throughout.
Ultimately though they're too reliant on a lifestyle where the poor wait on them hand and foot. When their servants turn against them, they are defenseless.
@jmerry
I see your point but I think we can at least agree that Duke Silvershield and Duke Eltan being taken out of the picture is reasonable needs so further explanation, yes?
As far as Belt and Duke Janneth go, they are just further proof that all NPCs outside of the party are automatically subject to video game NPC levels of convenient lack of intelligence.
A bunch of adventurers with a heroic reputation of 20, led by a young paladin named Ajantis, and carrying 40+ bandit scalps, ask to join the bandits because it's more profitable than trudging through dungeons.
Bandit camp logic: "Yeah sure! We can always use a helping hand or two! Do feel free to walk around all over the place, rest at the campfire, and walk in and out of our tents and loot any containers you find right in front of everybody!"
A bunch of adventurers with a heroic reputation of 20, led by a young paladin named Ajantis, and carrying 40+ bandit scalps, ask to join the bandits because it's more profitable than trudging through dungeons.
Bandit camp logic: "Yeah sure! We can always use a helping hand or two! Do feel free to walk around all over the place, rest at the campfire, and walk in and out of our tents and loot any containers you find right in front of everybody!"
"What, these? These are... Merchant Caravaner Scalps! You guys collect those, right?"
A bunch of adventurers with a heroic reputation of 20, led by a young paladin named Ajantis, and carrying 40+ bandit scalps, ask to join the bandits because it's more profitable than trudging through dungeons.
Bandit camp logic: "Yeah sure! We can always use a helping hand or two! Do feel free to walk around all over the place, rest at the campfire, and walk in and out of our tents and loot any containers you find right in front of everybody!"
Bandit: "You want to join our bandit gang?"
Ajantis: "My honour is my life."
Bandit: "Alrighty then, not sure how honorable a bandit can be but whatever..."
Ajantis: "We follow the righteous path. The path of Helm!"
Bandit: "You mean that high-and-mighty God who grants his followers the ability to see through our illusions and is basically the bane of every thief and bandit's existence? Sure, welcome aboard!"
Baldur's Gate Logic: Half-orcs can have 1 Intelligence--the same Intelligence score you could see on a skunk or a beetle or a hippo or some other animal--and still speak Common in complete sentences.
Baldur's Gate Logic: Half-orcs can have 1 Intelligence--the same Intelligence score you could see on a skunk or a beetle or a hippo or some other animal--and still speak Common in complete sentences.
If I recall one of the other Infinity Engine games has you speaking broken English if you're below a certain score, though I don't know if they have special dialogues reflecting an INT score as low as 1.
Baldur's Gate Logic: Half-orcs can have 1 Intelligence--the same Intelligence score you could see on a skunk or a beetle or a hippo or some other animal--and still speak Common in complete sentences.
I think that person would be far less intelligent than a tardigrade. Survive on the moon without any space-suit... who needs intelligence?
Baldur's Gate Logic: Half-orcs can have 1 Intelligence--the same Intelligence score you could see on a skunk or a beetle or a hippo or some other animal--and still speak Common in complete sentences.
If I recall one of the other Infinity Engine games has you speaking broken English if you're below a certain score, though I don't know if they have special dialogues reflecting an INT score as low as 1.
i dont know about IE games, but in the OC of NWN if your INT is below 9 you speak like a 2 or 3 year old
Comments
I was a thayan slayer like you, but I took an arrow on the knee.
Maybe I am the thayan slayer (not the guy that actually killed some thayan mages in front of you) and I do not know about it?
Let me guess... someone stole your sweet crimson drink of laughter and passion?
You know I could have gone into that Sanctuary and killed all those Thayan types, I was uh... just sick that day
Disrespect the law and you disrespect me.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Watch the magic!
No lollygaggin´
...kind of way?
The wiki doesn't flat out say that they are evil but most if not all of the leaders are evil and the groups goals and actions as a whole are textbook LE.
So maybe it's CN of me to say this but killing a self professed member of a very powerful group assaulting a woman innocent of any (major) crimes other than simply being a Wild Mage which she has no control over and his two mercenary buddies doesn't count as murder in my book.
Now killing Neera? THAT would be murder; at least from a normal persons perspective. From the Red Wizards perspective it would be an execution.
" the Red Wizards were the notorious and nefarious spellcasting ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Slavers, demonologists, and magical experimenters, the Red Wizards were much feared by most of Faerûn.<...>
received support from demons, devils, and drow. Amongst those who opposed them were the Witches of Rashemen, the Seven Sisters and their allies, the goodly Harpers, and even the Zhentarim, who disliked the Wizards encroaching on their territory." https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Wizards_of_Thay
And Thay is a Lawful Evil/Neutral Evil Magocracy...
the red wizard in Storm of Zehir seemed like an alright chap
Reputation of 1 carries a +900% price adjustment in stores.
Can you imagine being a merchant and having Charname, the loathsome, psychopathic mass-murderer walk into your store. This dude is known for having absolutely no regard for human life whatsoever, killing whoever stands in his way for whatever miniscule reason. You know you're lucky to escape the encounter with your life.
Does your mind go to: "What a bad boy, this Charname! To teach him a lesson, I'm going to charge him 9 times the regular price - we'll see what he thinks of that"?
Speaking of which; To be a mage takes study and high INT, it's choice you make. Wild mages have no control of their powers yet their power comes from studying the arcane arts. Sorcerers have innate magic depending on CHA, it's something you are born with.
Wild mages should just have been wild sorcerers instead. Or maybe all sorcerers should have had the 'wild magic' effect and Wild Mages just been removed.
Or make Wild Mage a separate class altogether. I love Wild Mages and I'd hate to get rid of the concept.
Neera is one of my favorite characters and the romance option I resonate the most with in real life. She's socially inept and awkward just like me and clearly a great person if somewhat flawed and damaged. Also not unlike me.
@mlnevese knows better than I do.
@ThacoBell Ah, now THAT makes a lot more sense! Their innate wild surge on other spells though.. There's probably a great reason for that as well then?
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/93459/#Comment_93459
In newer editions Wild Mages are sorcerers though, with innate, inborn powers. Neera's questline seems to be written under the new lore, even though the games were originally designed under the old lore, which is why her gameplay meshes weirdly with her story.
A smart player could easily defeat other mages levels higher just by jamming the other casters ability to cast while suffering no consequences himself
Duke Eltan: 20th level fighter.
Duke Entar: 21st level fighter.
Duchess Liia: 16th level mage (invoker).
If the party of 7th-10th level adventurers doesn't intervene in time, Sarevok's dopplegangers and hirelings will kill them all!
shopkeeper alive; all goods are easily available
shopkeeper dead; all goods suddenly vanish forever
And fill a room with hasted Greater Dopppegangers and a rusty fighter and unprepared mage can be killed quickly. Give them a room full of Flaming Fist guards and Charnames Party and the table is much more level.
I see no real flaws here.
So then, Belt brings his best armor and weapon, Liia prepares a defensive sequencer and a selection of combat spells, and they station a number of guards in the room. The fake nobles attack and are put down, with maybe a few guard casualties.
And then Sarevok blames it all on Amn and starts the war he wanted anyway. Huh, looks like the party was needed after all. The plot works just fine if the dukes are prepared and can defend themselves.
I think you're over-estimating the degree to which established nobility does anything for themselves.
They likely haven't haven't had to lift a finger in decades. They have people for this sort of stuff.
His Best Weapons and armor, Sequencers, man, they probably wouldn't even know where to find that stuff anymore. They've been living high on the hog.
Nobility can achieve great skill. They can afford all the best teachers. They have all the time in the world to train. They may even fight in battles, treating it as little more than a fanciful game, with their men there to keep them safe throughout.
Ultimately though they're too reliant on a lifestyle where the poor wait on them hand and foot. When their servants turn against them, they are defenseless.
I see your point but I think we can at least agree that Duke Silvershield and Duke Eltan being taken out of the picture is reasonable needs so further explanation, yes?
As far as Belt and Duke Janneth go, they are just further proof that all NPCs outside of the party are automatically subject to video game NPC levels of convenient lack of intelligence.
Bandit camp logic: "Yeah sure! We can always use a helping hand or two! Do feel free to walk around all over the place, rest at the campfire, and walk in and out of our tents and loot any containers you find right in front of everybody!"
"What, these? These are... Merchant Caravaner Scalps! You guys collect those, right?"
Bandit: "You want to join our bandit gang?"
Ajantis: "My honour is my life."
Bandit: "Alrighty then, not sure how honorable a bandit can be but whatever..."
Ajantis: "We follow the righteous path. The path of Helm!"
Bandit: "You mean that high-and-mighty God who grants his followers the ability to see through our illusions and is basically the bane of every thief and bandit's existence? Sure, welcome aboard!"
If I recall one of the other Infinity Engine games has you speaking broken English if you're below a certain score, though I don't know if they have special dialogues reflecting an INT score as low as 1.
I think that person would be far less intelligent than a tardigrade. Survive on the moon without any space-suit... who needs intelligence?
i dont know about IE games, but in the OC of NWN if your INT is below 9 you speak like a 2 or 3 year old