SoD for me hasn't quite found a clear place in the series yet. I treat it like a decent mod that I'll play about two thirds of the time. It's not too difficult to no-reload on core, but I don't enjoy the design assumptions which seem to limit your access to areas and instead focus on giving the encounters more outcomes and making them more reactive to your race and class. It's an efficient approach, but somehow the world feels smaller. It's as if it really does just exist for the player / child of bhaal, rather than being an immersive environment that the character is moving within. Having said that, having skipped it a time or two I feel like playing it again soon, certainly more so than ToB.
Massive plot holes, characters discarded/ruined, pathetic underdeveloped Big Bad, deus ex machina (soultaker dagger, really?), smattering of current politics/issues, messes up the existing games (IMO).
Edited to add.
It's quite extraordinary how so many faults I find with the game/film are so similar.
My second favourite NPC in the whole series. M'khiin is great.
I found I could only defeat the dragon one way, anything else didn't work. Could well be I'm not good enough but didn't really have much fun with it. Plus it was too casual, dragon's should get a build up.
I prefered the fight with the ghost one, now that was innovative. Party split, two groups fighting in different places and one NPC having to keep the dragon occupied.
Can't say I remember the ghost dragon at all. I'm currently almost finished with a BG run tho, so I'll be replaying SoD soon.
I really enjoyed fighting the mind-flayer-worm-thingie too, forgot the name. Neothelid? Something like that.
If the BG trilogy was Star Wars, SoD is the Phantom Menace, starting with a Trade Dispute, answering questions that nobody needed to know, throwing in flashy, but ultimately less satisfying, combat, and a bunch of characters that are never seen again and nobody really cares about in the long run.
As a lifetime fan of SW this post makes me madder than I'd like to admit.
@Pantalion I think there's a lot more similarity in plot structure between the games than you suggest. In your analysis you've set Caelar up as the equivalent of Sarevok, Irenicus and Melissan, but I don't think that's the right comparison. It's Hephernaan/Belhifet that's manipulating behind the scenes and has the connection with CHARNAME although neither you nor the authorities are aware of that during your journey. Caelar is just there to act as the fall guy (in the same sort of way as the Five in ToB).
But Caelar made it personal to CHARNAME because she wanted the Bhaalspan's blood to do something crucial for her plan (does this thread have a spoiler warning, btw?).
My PC dearly missed at some point the possibility to hand herself in and end all the fighting and siege and suffering of ordinary people. "You want me, Caelar? Fine, here I am!". Or at an earlier point, why not join the Crusade, only to find out you've been double-double crossed (because it's your blood we wanted all along, meheheh.) But this was stated elsewhere already, that it was disappointing not to have the possibility to join her, at least. But it was also the reason the whole campaign and the siege seemed forced onto the player and it broke immersion for me. I wouldn't mind not being able to join because Caelar or your allies won't let you, but I am highly sensitive to the option just missing in your reply options and instead having what felt like twenty reply options all saying different variations of "never, Caelar, damn you" (there aren't twenty reply options stating that, of course, I am putting my feeling into words.)
@jastey in the truce discussions between the Crusade and Caelar you do get the opportunity to say you want to give yourself up - though the Crusaders are not willing to allow that . In the final battle you also have the opportunity to join with her (or fight against her or indeed take a third option).
But Caelar made it personal to CHARNAME because she wanted the Bhaalspan's blood to do something crucial for her plan (does this thread have a spoiler warning, btw?).
My PC dearly missed at some point the possibility to hand herself in and end all the fighting and siege and suffering of ordinary people. "You want me, Caelar? Fine, here I am!". Or at an earlier point, why not join the Crusade, only to find out you've been double-double crossed (because it's your blood we wanted all along, meheheh.) But this was stated elsewhere already, that it was disappointing not to have the possibility to join her, at least. But it was also the reason the whole campaign and the siege seemed forced onto the player and it broke immersion for me. I wouldn't mind not being able to join because Caelar or your allies won't let you, but I am highly sensitive to the option just missing in your reply options and instead having what felt like twenty reply options all saying different variations of "never, Caelar, damn you" (there aren't twenty reply options stating that, of course, I am putting my feeling into words.)
I'd rather agree with @Grond0 in the post above that. It's like complaining that you can't join the Five in ToB and eliminate all the bhaalspawns. It's Hephernaan on her side just like the allies' commanders on your side that don't want you and Cealar to come close. For their several reasons they are afraid that the two of you together will be too strong to control. And neither her nor protagonist are in full control of the situation, you're just part of the game played by the Dukes vs the crusade. You wish for a freedom of choice that the protagonist does not have as part of an army. And Cealar doesn't have it because she's not as much in control of the crusade as she thinks. Given this, your choices are as limited as everywhere else in the game. Like in ToB you can't just give your blood to the Solar and say *I'm outa here*, not until you played your role that someone else wrote for you.
But it's not like the choices in TOB because of where the game has been set.
BG2 teaches you, more than anything else it does, about being a Bhaalspawn. It's from Irenicus, your journey through the game, your rising power, the knowledge of the slayer being part of you, the hell trials ect. So when confronted by the inevitability of having to see the story through to the end, you accept it because of what you have learnt. That's the character arc.
In SOD, BG2 shouldn't and doesn't exist. You are weeks at most from finding Gorion's letter, you are mentally(?) no more a Bhaalspawn than any other NPC.
For SOD to work with any coherence with the other games, charname being "the Bhaalspawn" should actually be ignored. You're a grunt in the army, though a talented one.
OK, that's a coherent position for the game to take but does lead to disatisfaction for the player. As Charname here you are on the road to Godhood possibly, but then have been conscripted and have to take sh*t from people. And then on top of that SOD tries to have it's cake and eat it. Dragging in Irenicus, dragging in Bhaal, so much foreshadowing ect.
Great thread guys. Nasty comments aside, most of you hit on the theme I was trying to convey. Beamdog did a brave thing in trying to add on to a classic story. As many of you said, it's likely an area that didn't need much more fleshing out. It just didn't feel right to me and it isn't because of plot holes.
Again, I think they'd have been much better served starting with a fresh character and storyline, potentially tied in to the BG story. Since SoD is largely irrelevant to the major BG story arc of a Bhaal Spawn, a new face doing new stuff (possibly level 1-4) would have been welcome.
2 potential hooks: - Drizzit acts as a 'guide' to a young adventurer, needing his help to track down a captured Dryad (the one in BG proper). This could serve to explain his appearance in BG1 - Elminister has a similar ward to Gorion, but an offspring of Tyr or Helm. TyrSpawn's (?) actions are in parallel to the Bhaalspawn but in the Moon Sea area. Gorion may even appear in the story from time to time just like Elminister did to 'meddle' in Elminister's ward's adventure.
Putting into spoiler tags for potential series wide spoilers.
I wonder why Caelar gets so much hate. I think she is a fantastic villain, right up there with Sarevok. Which is fitting, as she is a HUGE FOIL to Sarevok. He was born only to die and managed to get himself out of that situation. Was a adopted by a wealthy merchant, only to find out that he was abusive and murdered Sarevok's foster mother (and its implied that Sarevok WAS fond of her. it look like a clear case of someone turning out bad because of events they had no control over, but also how determined Sarevok was carve out a place for himself despite how much reality seemed to hate him.
Conversly, we have Caelar. Am Aasimar, born into a noble paladin family, and had every advantage to her name. Unfortunately, where Sarevok was cautious, Caelar was supremely arrogant. Ignoring the warnings of her teachers, she ended up summoning a demon (devil? I can never tell) lord which resulted in her uncle sacrificing himself to an eternity of torment to save his spoiled niece. Caelar had every advantage that Sarevok wished he had, and she managed to throw it away.
Going further, she is a fantastic deconstruction of the destined hero. Divine blood, paladin, respected family, lead a bloody crusade across the land (whoops), something that Sarevok had previously tried and failed to do. She even subverts the noble sacrifice. While legitimately trying to save a life at potentially great cost to her own, she also demands that cost of hundreds of others on false promises. She willing threw every advantage life gave her away all for her arrogant belief that whatever she did was right, simply because she did it. After all, she is half divine, she is an Argent, how could she ever commit evil?
Furthermore, she is a fantastic light mirror to charname (where Sarevok was a dark mirror). A lot of the BG series focuses on a theme of nature vs nurture. It at first looks like Sarevok is evil because of his heritage, there are very few good Bhaalspawn to be found. Balthazar heavily pushes the "nature" side of the argument. Charname (and even Sarevok) has a chance to prove that their actions and will can overcome their tainted nature. Caelar runs with the opposite of this. Proving that even having good divine blood does not make one good. Her actions cause a staggering amount of death and destruction, for what seems like a good cause on paper, despite her heritage.
TLDR version: I LOVE Caelar as a villain, she fills a similar role to Sarevok (the best villain of the series) but from a different perspective, while also fitting into the existing themes of the series beautifully.
@ThacoBell - TBH, I would feel inclined to agree with you if Caelar had some agency.
DARN YOU HEPHERNAAN!
Yeah, unlike Sarevok, who was in control, Caelar was just being used by another power (kinda obviously too). All the signs were there, but she refused to listen or exercise any caution (that fatal flaw).
Putting into spoiler tags for potential series wide spoilers.
I wonder why Caelar gets so much hate. I think she is a fantastic villain, right up there with Sarevok. Which is fitting, as she is a HUGE FOIL to Sarevok. He was born only to die and managed to get himself out of that situation. Was a adopted by a wealthy merchant, only to find out that he was abusive and murdered Sarevok's foster mother (and its implied that Sarevok WAS fond of her. it look like a clear case of someone turning out bad because of events they had no control over, but also how determined Sarevok was carve out a place for himself despite how much reality seemed to hate him.
Conversly, we have Caelar. Am Aasimar, born into a noble paladin family, and had every advantage to her name. Unfortunately, where Sarevok was cautious, Caelar was supremely arrogant. Ignoring the warnings of her teachers, she ended up summoning a demon (devil? I can never tell) lord which resulted in her uncle sacrificing himself to an eternity of torment to save his spoiled niece. Caelar had every advantage that Sarevok wished he had, and she managed to throw it away.
Going further, she is a fantastic deconstruction of the destined hero. Divine blood, paladin, respected family, lead a bloody crusade across the land (whoops), something that Sarevok had previously tried and failed to do. She even subverts the noble sacrifice. While legitimately trying to save a life at potentially great cost to her own, she also demands that cost of hundreds of others on false promises. She willing threw every advantage life gave her away all for her arrogant belief that whatever she did was right, simply because she did it. After all, she is half divine, she is an Argent, how could she ever commit evil?
Furthermore, she is a fantastic light mirror to charname (where Sarevok was a dark mirror). A lot of the BG series focuses on a theme of nature vs nurture. It at first looks like Sarevok is evil because of his heritage, there are very few good Bhaalspawn to be found. Balthazar heavily pushes the "nature" side of the argument. Charname (and even Sarevok) has a chance to prove that their actions and will can overcome their tainted nature. Caelar runs with the opposite of this. Proving that even having good divine blood does not make one good. Her actions cause a staggering amount of death and destruction, for what seems like a good cause on paper, despite her heritage.
TLDR version: I LOVE Caelar as a villain, she fills a similar role to Sarevok (the best villain of the series) but from a different perspective, while also fitting into the existing themes of the series beautifully.
A pretty good analysis, just I'd rather call her *antagonist* than *villain* to stress your point even further. It*s her self-righteousness that makes her dangerous and with that she represents the source of probably more suffering in the world than caused by the truly evil bastards. And that makes her a worthy addition to the game.
I never get tired of reading your posts about Caelar @ThacoBell, even if we disagree about her being a villain. She's a misguided hero damnit. #saveCaelar #bringBackTheShiningLady
Don't try to solve the matter in-thread. Just report it to moderators.
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Do this instead of engaging with the problem yourself in-thread. Let the moderators decide how to deal with any issues between users.
Some people think that if somebody "starts it," they have a right to continue it. But the Site Rules do not make exceptions or accept excuses.
Don't try to solve the matter in-thread. Just report it to moderators.
In case anyone isn't aware, the Site Rules specifically say that this is the only way to address trolling. Claiming "self defense" is never an excuse for personal attacks:
If you see a post that you think breaks one of the rules, click "Flag", then "Report". A window will pop up. Choose the rule that you think the post is breaking. If you're not sure, choose "Other". Provide any additional details in the Notes section. Press "Send Report".
Do this instead of engaging with the problem yourself in-thread. Let the moderators decide how to deal with any issues between users.
Some people think that if somebody "starts it," they have a right to continue it. But the Site Rules do not make exceptions or accept excuses.
This is now the second time within days (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/955324/#Comment_955324) that I get such a warning from some over eager moderator for ABSOLUTELY NO APPARENT REASON!!! I tried to help a lot of people with my posts on this forum but this appears to be some WITCH HUNT now!
If you have to tell me something, then TELL IT TO MY FACE and not hide behind some *site rules*. This is censorship and disgusting cowardice.
Don't try to solve the matter in-thread. Just report it to moderators.
In case anyone isn't aware, the Site Rules specifically say that this is the only way to address trolling. Claiming "self defense" is never an excuse for personal attacks:
If you see a post that you think breaks one of the rules, click "Flag", then "Report". A window will pop up. Choose the rule that you think the post is breaking. If you're not sure, choose "Other". Provide any additional details in the Notes section. Press "Send Report".
Do this instead of engaging with the problem yourself in-thread. Let the moderators decide how to deal with any issues between users.
Some people think that if somebody "starts it," they have a right to continue it. But the Site Rules do not make exceptions or accept excuses.
This is now the second time within days (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/955324/#Comment_955324) that I get such a warning from some over eager moderator for ABSOLUTELY NO APPARENT REASON!!! I tried to help a lot of people with my posts on this forum but this appears to be some WITCH HUNT now!
If you have to tell me something, then TELL IT TO MY FACE and not hide behind some *site rules*. This is censorship and disgusting cowardice.
Hey @PaulaMigrate Can't find amything wrong with your posts? I see you help quite a few people here with their problems, did with mine with a saved game repair. Looks like they don't much like this around here. Maybe they think it makes their games look bad or something?
@PaulaMigrate I suspect there's a communication glitch here. I'm assuming you're not responding to a private warning, but just to the post from @semiticgod you quoted. If so I don't think the warning was aimed at you in the slightest. Since you commented in the thread the posts have all been fine, but earlier comments (though only a few hours old) certainly merited a reminder about the site rules.
Not persuaded, and the motivation for me is weak. I find the writing isn't good enough for Caelor to be convincing. And the voice acting is poor IMO. Reminds me of Mageret Thatcher before she brought in voice coaches that pointed out strident hectoring doesn't go down so well.
The speeches she makes are hardly,
"Once more unto the breach dear friends".
And to pull off what you are describing as it's so far fetched, they would have to be about that level.
(though I could imagine a few players enjoying "a little touch of Caelor in the night")
At no point in the game does she ever strike me as somebody who wouldn't be moaned about/laughed about down the pub as being a massive PITA.
@PaulaMigrate I suspect there's a communication glitch here. I'm assuming you're not responding to a private warning, but just to the post from @semiticgod you quoted. If so I don't think the warning was aimed at you in the slightest. Since you commented in the thread the posts have all been fine, but earlier comments (though only a few hours old) certainly merited a reminder about the site rules.
This may be true if it were for one occasion. But *twice in a tenday* isn't a glitch but a pattern.
Anyway, I would rather leave with my head held high than to be kicked out of here like a rabid dog.
There's plenty of things I dislike about SoD (just abandoned a run in it due to disinterest, RIP Benjamin Bunny), and a few fairly interesting set pieces. Most overwhelmingly, it ultimately just feels a bit pointless in the end.
Why get loot? I have gear already, and any of the new loot is a sidegrade at best. Why get gold? The game's short and linear and there's barely anything to buy. Heck, why is CHARNAME even there?
Sarevok: Powers that be are clueless to the threat, he's manipulating them into starting a war, personal connection with CHARNAME, highly motivated to send multiple assassins after him, kills Gorion, plunging region into crisis which only an adventurer can handle due to: Crossing state lines to continue investigating deeper and deeper into the crisis ultimately to thwart an attempted coup. His scheme for godhood would have succeeded without CHARNAME's intervention (possibly not leading to godhood, but still, good try for a Fighter).
Irenicus: Powers that be are clueless to the threat, he's amassing power to attain real ultimate power, personal connection with CHARNAME, tortures Imoen and CHARNAME, kidnaps Imoen etc. Only CHARNAME can handle him as the state cannot handle firepower of that magnitude, and the state has been occupied elsewhere with a Drow invasion arranged by Irenicus. His schemes for godhood would have succeeded without CHARNAME's intervention.
Mellissan: Powers that be are clueless to the threat. She's gathering people like CHARNAME together and directly pushing for CHARNAME to handle literally epic threats. Only CHARNAME can handle these threats as they literally exceed the reasonable capacity of your average country to handle, up to the purely personal confrontation between demigods duking it out for supremacy. Her schemes for godhood would have succeeded without CHARNAME's intervention.
Caelar: Powers that be are well aware of the threat and already dealing with it. She is in another country doing her own thing. She has ultimately no connection to CHARNAME whatsoever, mildly inconveniences CHARNAME and Imoen (mainly because nobody would let CHARNAME cast Slow Poison or just stab and raise her as usual). There is literally a coalition army already en route going to end her crusade.
Her schemes for going to hell and dying will probably succeed with or without CHARNAME raising a finger, they may lead to a demonic incursion or not, with an army right there to deal with it, whether she succeeds or fails is largely irrelevant, but has a good chance of failing without CHARNAME's intervention and is generally a political matter, not a personal one.
If the BG trilogy was Star Wars, SoD is the Phantom Menace, starting with a Trade Dispute, answering questions that nobody needed to know, throwing in flashy, but ultimately less satisfying, combat, and a bunch of characters that are never seen again and nobody really cares about in the long run.
The personal connection is that she may be a bhaalspawn (this is definitely brought up in rumors dialogue, it may be also brought up elsewhere).
Also she does send assassins after you. Seems pretty personal to me.
@PaulaMigrate I see nothing in this thread singling you out. FWIW I don't think warnings on this forum are used as a disciplinary thing. They are more of a reminder. I don't think you have to worry about being kicked out, your posts are almost universally helpful and kind.
@UnderstandMouseMagic I would love to have the time and ability to sit down with you in person and go through the different writing throughout the series. Comparing likes, dislikes, and the why of it would be a lot of fun. Even if only to laugh at the puzzled looks on each other's face "You mean you like THAT!?"
@UnderstandMouseMagic I would love to have the time and ability to sit down with you in person and go through the different writing throughout the series. Comparing likes, dislikes, and the why of it would be a lot of fun. Even if only to laugh at the puzzled looks on each other's face "You mean you like THAT!?"
Well that's easy.
Everything Edwin says is witty, erudite and reveals such wisdom that we are not worthy.
Everything everybody else says......not so much.
With honourable exceptions by a few of the others.
(joking)
I'd love to find out who wrote what, that's always something I've wondered about. Did the same person write all the dialogue, written or spoken?
Don't try to solve the matter in-thread. Just report it to moderators.
In case anyone isn't aware, the Site Rules specifically say that this is the only way to address trolling. Claiming "self defense" is never an excuse for personal attacks:
If you see a post that you think breaks one of the rules, click "Flag", then "Report". A window will pop up. Choose the rule that you think the post is breaking. If you're not sure, choose "Other". Provide any additional details in the Notes section. Press "Send Report".
Do this instead of engaging with the problem yourself in-thread. Let the moderators decide how to deal with any issues between users.
Some people think that if somebody "starts it," they have a right to continue it. But the Site Rules do not make exceptions or accept excuses.
This is now the second time within days (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/955324/#Comment_955324) that I get such a warning from some over eager moderator for ABSOLUTELY NO APPARENT REASON!!! I tried to help a lot of people with my posts on this forum but this appears to be some WITCH HUNT now!
If you have to tell me something, then TELL IT TO MY FACE and not hide behind some *site rules*. This is censorship and disgusting cowardice.
I didn't even know you received a warning,@PaulaMigrate, or that you had any contact with the moderating team. I've never even seen the post in the "BG and SoD compatible mods" thread you linked to. I don't think I've ever even visited the thread. If you got contacted by another moderator, I haven't heard about it until you mentioned it just now.
I quoted the Site Rules because I've had to explain to numerous people over numerous occasions since I became a moderator that "self-defense" is not a valid excuse for launching personal attacks. A lot of people have received warnings for personal attacks and they often respond that they weren't the one who "started it" and that they were just "fighting back" against another person's attacks. I often have to explain that this line of reasoning isn't accepted.
Since @JuliusBorisov mentioned that part of the Site Rules in his post, I decided to take the opportunity to highlight a common misconception about personal attacks on the forums, since I've had to explain it so many times to so many people in PMs and warnings. It was a PSA to correct a misconception held by dozens of forumites.
My post was not about you. If you read the message again, you'll notice that I didn't quote you, I didn't refer to anything you've ever said, and I didn't tag you in my post, nor did I send you any personal messages or warnings. I didn't even notice you were participating in this thread; you only posted two comments in this thread and neither of them were rulebreaking.
I haven't accused you of anything; I didn't even realize you were here. I'm not your enemy, @PaulaMigrate.
@Pantalion I think there's a lot more similarity in plot structure between the games than you suggest. In your analysis you've set Caelar up as the equivalent of Sarevok, Irenicus and Melissan, but I don't think that's the right comparison. It's Hephernaan/Belhifet that's manipulating behind the scenes and has the connection with CHARNAME although neither you nor the authorities are aware of that during your journey. Caelar is just there to act as the fall guy (in the same sort of way as the Five in ToB).
Sure, Caelar is obviously being manipulated (not that I've got far enough to do anything but guess that he's actually secretly a demon trying to push her into pushing into the hells in a bid to release Belhifet who is his true master). It's just... He's largely irrelevant to me as well.
Imagine Melissan never actually talks to CHARNAME, the Five are actually a brand of Cormyrian mafia involved in a large scale gang war, and CHARNAME got mixed up in a mafia hit. It's all a scheme by Melissan that CHARNAME travel to defeat the five families (which already had a Cormyrian army set to do just that) so that she can then have CHARNAME in the right place to enact her dastardly scheme, which she reveals at the last minute having just shown up at the last minute.
That right there is a side quest, not a main quest.
Now let me spend five minutes cobbling some tropes together.
Caelar Argent just sent assassins, they got Imoen instead, she's DYING, and you were the target! Time to gather up a party! MORE ASSASSINS! Good thing random archer lass was with you! Imoen is still dying?! Oh no! Magical healing isn't working? Oh snap! Some kind of special assassination weapon used by one of the assassins who escaped?! Okay! But I don't care about Imoen. But what if they get you next? There were three encounters already after all. Okay! I sort of have to care about self-interest! Also the assassin stabbed me and my wound isn't healing magically either, it gave me -4 Max HP! Nasty!
Into the woods! I'm scouting! OH NO! AMBUSH! Flaming Fist contingent has been decimated! They're crusadaers trying to capture you, but you fight them off! Oh no! It's all up to you to lead the survivors back to the rest of the army while Caelar's forces harry you the whole way! There's that assassin guy! He isn't using the weapon? Whatever. Fight! Outnumbered by an army of enemies! Oh look! We made it far enough to save our Flaming Fist buddies! There's the main Flaming Fist force to reinforce us! Phew! Rest at camp. Sieging Bridgefort tomorrow to try and cross the river. Oh snap! Attacked by friendly Flaming Fist guy! They've got infiltrators! Can't trust anyone! Leadership says sneak into Bridgefort!
Blah blah blah. Eventually face the assassin and their no heal weapon, defeat them, recover the lost HP, and either save or don't save Imoen by sending the weapon back or keeping it (she'll still recover naturally eventually and you'll get a weapon of no healz to play with), reach Dragonspear, face well intentioned extremist girl, determine that she is an idiot being manipulated after more or less defeating her, it was the Butler (who has appeared as a lieutenant and directed a few people to attack CHARNAME in the past to establish him as such, and as a nastyman who is a foil to Caelar's niceness and fair dealings)! Turns out it was all a trick by the butler manipulating Caelar to bring you here, as you were necessary to open the gates of hell. BOSS FIGHT! Survive! Epilogue defined by your moral choices! Irenicus'd!
Compare what we actually have:
Caelar Argent sent five guys. Imoen has a slight hangover. Oooo, nasty. Go around town talking to people without incident. Leave.
Okay, woods. See a burnt inn and some bears or something, see a bridge and six crusaders, blow it up, talk to Caelar who talks about a stupid plan you don't care about. Guess I need to go east? Okay. More woods without incident. More east? Okay. More woods without incident. Oh look, a bridge with Crusaders. They're laying siege or something on a fort, and didn't, for some reason, elect to just blow up the bridge to cut off a third of the coalition army they would face and thwart CHARNAME (don't get me started on the troop positioning in SoD). Blah blah blah I wouldn't know I quit about here and am now thinking of starting a Mage/Thief in BG1 if I can find a fun new kit to play. I'd be pretty surprised if the demon plan wasn't more or less the same as above, though.
The second seems to require that the player take those first five assassins really personally, or to have a very strong sense of civic duty, because there's never another capture attempt, very little in the way of meaningful threat, and no real stakes for the player. I believe this is the cause of the "sandbox" type feeling - there is no real pressure on the player to proceed with the plot beyond "Well I've been everywhere else", and when they do, nothing really happens as a result except another map to explore until they exhaust it, and their presence is largely irrelevant because the Flaming Fist seems that it has a pretty solid chance of taking out the Crusade if CHARNAME just leaves.
@Elminster: Any personal connection is utterly exhausted the absolute first conversation you have with her, across the broken bridge. "Are you a Bhaalspawn?" "Nope, Aasimar." "k, I'll be going South then, laters." It would have arguably been better if she actually was a godspawn, because as it is she has about as close and meaningful a connection with them as half of Sigil.
I honestly got disappointed with the way SoD's plot develops.
When I played the first time and saw myself on a dungeon hunting Sarevok's followers I thought "that will be awesome". But then the plot moved on and I perceived what it was about.
Disappointing.
Then I ended it and I didn't got the "bridge between BG1 and BG2". The transition was confuse yet - only slightly better thanks to EET (that final cutscene is the only reason why I play this mod as I'm stupid and BWS gives me a bad time).
Disappointing.
In my second run in SoD I tried to play this as a ToSC huge quest. Putting behind any perspective of a BG2-transition it was, let's say, pleasant.
Not as good as Durlag's Tower but definitely better than Ice Island and Werewolf Island.
As a bridge I rate SoD as a 2/10. As a quest-pack, 6/10.
I honestly got disappointed with the way SoD's plot develops.
When I played the first time and saw myself on a dungeon hunting Sarevok's followers I thought "that will be awesome". But then the plot moved on and I perceived what it was about.
Disappointing.
Then I ended it and I didn't got the "bridge between BG1 and BG2". The transition was confuse yet - only slightly better thanks to EET (that final cutscene is the only reason why I play this mod as I'm stupid and BWS gives me a bad time).
Disappointing.
In my second run in SoD I tried to play this as a ToSC huge quest. Putting behind any perspective of a BG2-transition it was, let's say, pleasant.
Not as good as Durlag's Tower but definitely better than Ice Island and Werewolf Island.
As a bridge I rate SoD as a 2/10. As a quest-pack, 6/10.
They made the big mistake to fire Roxanne from the project and she took all the ideas of how SoD be the bridge from BG1 to BG2 with her. You get it when you use her Sandrah mod with EET and see how it becomes a picture.
Comments
More like The Last Jedi.
Massive plot holes, characters discarded/ruined, pathetic underdeveloped Big Bad, deus ex machina (soultaker dagger, really?), smattering of current politics/issues, messes up the existing games (IMO).
Edited to add.
It's quite extraordinary how so many faults I find with the game/film are so similar.
I'm currently almost finished with a BG run tho, so I'll be replaying SoD soon.
I really enjoyed fighting the mind-flayer-worm-thingie too, forgot the name. Neothelid? Something like that.
My PC dearly missed at some point the possibility to hand herself in and end all the fighting and siege and suffering of ordinary people. "You want me, Caelar? Fine, here I am!".
Or at an earlier point, why not join the Crusade, only to find out you've been double-double crossed (because it's your blood we wanted all along, meheheh.) But this was stated elsewhere already, that it was disappointing not to have the possibility to join her, at least.
But it was also the reason the whole campaign and the siege seemed forced onto the player and it broke immersion for me. I wouldn't mind not being able to join because Caelar or your allies won't let you, but I am highly sensitive to the option just missing in your reply options and instead having what felt like twenty reply options all saying different variations of "never, Caelar, damn you" (there aren't twenty reply options stating that, of course, I am putting my feeling into words.)
Given this, your choices are as limited as everywhere else in the game. Like in ToB you can't just give your blood to the Solar and say *I'm outa here*, not until you played your role that someone else wrote for you.
But it's not like the choices in TOB because of where the game has been set.
BG2 teaches you, more than anything else it does, about being a Bhaalspawn. It's from Irenicus, your journey through the game, your rising power, the knowledge of the slayer being part of you, the hell trials ect.
So when confronted by the inevitability of having to see the story through to the end, you accept it because of what you have learnt.
That's the character arc.
In SOD, BG2 shouldn't and doesn't exist.
You are weeks at most from finding Gorion's letter, you are mentally(?) no more a Bhaalspawn than any other NPC.
For SOD to work with any coherence with the other games, charname being "the Bhaalspawn" should actually be ignored.
You're a grunt in the army, though a talented one.
OK, that's a coherent position for the game to take but does lead to disatisfaction for the player. As Charname here you are on the road to Godhood possibly, but then have been conscripted and have to take sh*t from people. And then on top of that SOD tries to have it's cake and eat it. Dragging in Irenicus, dragging in Bhaal, so much foreshadowing ect.
It's a mess.
Again, I think they'd have been much better served starting with a fresh character and storyline, potentially tied in to the BG story. Since SoD is largely irrelevant to the major BG story arc of a Bhaal Spawn, a new face doing new stuff (possibly level 1-4) would have been welcome.
2 potential hooks:
- Drizzit acts as a 'guide' to a young adventurer, needing his help to track down a captured Dryad (the one in BG proper). This could serve to explain his appearance in BG1
- Elminister has a similar ward to Gorion, but an offspring of Tyr or Helm. TyrSpawn's (?) actions are in parallel to the Bhaalspawn but in the Moon Sea area. Gorion may even appear in the story from time to time just like Elminister did to 'meddle' in Elminister's ward's adventure.
Conversly, we have Caelar. Am Aasimar, born into a noble paladin family, and had every advantage to her name. Unfortunately, where Sarevok was cautious, Caelar was supremely arrogant. Ignoring the warnings of her teachers, she ended up summoning a demon (devil? I can never tell) lord which resulted in her uncle sacrificing himself to an eternity of torment to save his spoiled niece. Caelar had every advantage that Sarevok wished he had, and she managed to throw it away.
Going further, she is a fantastic deconstruction of the destined hero. Divine blood, paladin, respected family, lead a bloody crusade across the land (whoops), something that Sarevok had previously tried and failed to do. She even subverts the noble sacrifice. While legitimately trying to save a life at potentially great cost to her own, she also demands that cost of hundreds of others on false promises. She willing threw every advantage life gave her away all for her arrogant belief that whatever she did was right, simply because she did it. After all, she is half divine, she is an Argent, how could she ever commit evil?
Furthermore, she is a fantastic light mirror to charname (where Sarevok was a dark mirror). A lot of the BG series focuses on a theme of nature vs nurture. It at first looks like Sarevok is evil because of his heritage, there are very few good Bhaalspawn to be found. Balthazar heavily pushes the "nature" side of the argument. Charname (and even Sarevok) has a chance to prove that their actions and will can overcome their tainted nature. Caelar runs with the opposite of this. Proving that even having good divine blood does not make one good. Her actions cause a staggering amount of death and destruction, for what seems like a good cause on paper, despite her heritage.
TLDR version: I LOVE Caelar as a villain, she fills a similar role to Sarevok (the best villain of the series) but from a different perspective, while also fitting into the existing themes of the series beautifully.
She's a misguided hero damnit.
#saveCaelar #bringBackTheShiningLady
NEVER! She is a villain darnit!
While SoD does have troubles with its writing, I ADORE the themes the writers used.
I tried to help a lot of people with my posts on this forum but this appears to be some WITCH HUNT now!
If you have to tell me something, then TELL IT TO MY FACE and not hide behind some *site rules*.
This is censorship and disgusting cowardice.
Can't find amything wrong with your posts?
I see you help quite a few people here with their problems, did with mine with a saved game repair. Looks like they don't much like this around here. Maybe they think it makes their games look bad or something?
@ThacoBell
Not persuaded, and the motivation for me is weak.
I find the writing isn't good enough for Caelor to be convincing. And the voice acting is poor IMO. Reminds me of Mageret Thatcher before she brought in voice coaches that pointed out strident hectoring doesn't go down so well.
The speeches she makes are hardly,
"Once more unto the breach dear friends".
And to pull off what you are describing as it's so far fetched, they would have to be about that level.
(though I could imagine a few players enjoying "a little touch of Caelor in the night")
At no point in the game does she ever strike me as somebody who wouldn't be moaned about/laughed about down the pub as being a massive PITA.
Anyway, I would rather leave with my head held high than to be kicked out of here like a rabid dog.
Also she does send assassins after you. Seems pretty personal to me.
@UnderstandMouseMagic I would love to have the time and ability to sit down with you in person and go through the different writing throughout the series. Comparing likes, dislikes, and the why of it would be a lot of fun. Even if only to laugh at the puzzled looks on each other's face "You mean you like THAT!?"
Everything Edwin says is witty, erudite and reveals such wisdom that we are not worthy.
Everything everybody else says......not so much.
With honourable exceptions by a few of the others.
(joking)
I'd love to find out who wrote what, that's always something I've wondered about. Did the same person write all the dialogue, written or spoken?
I quoted the Site Rules because I've had to explain to numerous people over numerous occasions since I became a moderator that "self-defense" is not a valid excuse for launching personal attacks. A lot of people have received warnings for personal attacks and they often respond that they weren't the one who "started it" and that they were just "fighting back" against another person's attacks. I often have to explain that this line of reasoning isn't accepted.
Since @JuliusBorisov mentioned that part of the Site Rules in his post, I decided to take the opportunity to highlight a common misconception about personal attacks on the forums, since I've had to explain it so many times to so many people in PMs and warnings. It was a PSA to correct a misconception held by dozens of forumites.
My post was not about you. If you read the message again, you'll notice that I didn't quote you, I didn't refer to anything you've ever said, and I didn't tag you in my post, nor did I send you any personal messages or warnings. I didn't even notice you were participating in this thread; you only posted two comments in this thread and neither of them were rulebreaking.
I haven't accused you of anything; I didn't even realize you were here. I'm not your enemy, @PaulaMigrate.
Imagine Melissan never actually talks to CHARNAME, the Five are actually a brand of Cormyrian mafia involved in a large scale gang war, and CHARNAME got mixed up in a mafia hit. It's all a scheme by Melissan that CHARNAME travel to defeat the five families (which already had a Cormyrian army set to do just that) so that she can then have CHARNAME in the right place to enact her dastardly scheme, which she reveals at the last minute having just shown up at the last minute.
That right there is a side quest, not a main quest.
Now let me spend five minutes cobbling some tropes together.
Into the woods! I'm scouting! OH NO! AMBUSH! Flaming Fist contingent has been decimated! They're crusadaers trying to capture you, but you fight them off! Oh no! It's all up to you to lead the survivors back to the rest of the army while Caelar's forces harry you the whole way! There's that assassin guy! He isn't using the weapon? Whatever. Fight! Outnumbered by an army of enemies! Oh look! We made it far enough to save our Flaming Fist buddies! There's the main Flaming Fist force to reinforce us! Phew! Rest at camp. Sieging Bridgefort tomorrow to try and cross the river. Oh snap! Attacked by friendly Flaming Fist guy! They've got infiltrators! Can't trust anyone! Leadership says sneak into Bridgefort!
Blah blah blah. Eventually face the assassin and their no heal weapon, defeat them, recover the lost HP, and either save or don't save Imoen by sending the weapon back or keeping it (she'll still recover naturally eventually and you'll get a weapon of no healz to play with), reach Dragonspear, face well intentioned extremist girl, determine that she is an idiot being manipulated after more or less defeating her, it was the Butler (who has appeared as a lieutenant and directed a few people to attack CHARNAME in the past to establish him as such, and as a nastyman who is a foil to Caelar's niceness and fair dealings)! Turns out it was all a trick by the butler manipulating Caelar to bring you here, as you were necessary to open the gates of hell. BOSS FIGHT! Survive! Epilogue defined by your moral choices! Irenicus'd!
Compare what we actually have:
Okay, woods. See a burnt inn and some bears or something, see a bridge and six crusaders, blow it up, talk to Caelar who talks about a stupid plan you don't care about. Guess I need to go east? Okay. More woods without incident. More east? Okay. More woods without incident. Oh look, a bridge with Crusaders. They're laying siege or something on a fort, and didn't, for some reason, elect to just blow up the bridge to cut off a third of the coalition army they would face and thwart CHARNAME (don't get me started on the troop positioning in SoD). Blah blah blah I wouldn't know I quit about here and am now thinking of starting a Mage/Thief in BG1 if I can find a fun new kit to play. I'd be pretty surprised if the demon plan wasn't more or less the same as above, though.
The second seems to require that the player take those first five assassins really personally, or to have a very strong sense of civic duty, because there's never another capture attempt, very little in the way of meaningful threat, and no real stakes for the player. I believe this is the cause of the "sandbox" type feeling - there is no real pressure on the player to proceed with the plot beyond "Well I've been everywhere else", and when they do, nothing really happens as a result except another map to explore until they exhaust it, and their presence is largely irrelevant because the Flaming Fist seems that it has a pretty solid chance of taking out the Crusade if CHARNAME just leaves.
@Elminster: Any personal connection is utterly exhausted the absolute first conversation you have with her, across the broken bridge. "Are you a Bhaalspawn?" "Nope, Aasimar." "k, I'll be going South then, laters."
It would have arguably been better if she actually was a godspawn, because as it is she has about as close and meaningful a connection with them as half of Sigil.
When I played the first time and saw myself on a dungeon hunting Sarevok's followers I thought "that will be awesome". But then the plot moved on and I perceived what it was about.
Disappointing.
Then I ended it and I didn't got the "bridge between BG1 and BG2". The transition was confuse yet - only slightly better thanks to EET (that final cutscene is the only reason why I play this mod as I'm stupid and BWS gives me a bad time).
Disappointing.
In my second run in SoD I tried to play this as a ToSC huge quest. Putting behind any perspective of a BG2-transition it was, let's say, pleasant.
Not as good as Durlag's Tower but definitely better than Ice Island and Werewolf Island.
As a bridge I rate SoD as a 2/10. As a quest-pack, 6/10.